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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#831

Post by bastawhiz »

LocalH wrote: post #797
bastawhiz wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Does the popularity of a racist symbol have any correlation with whether it should be suppressed? Swastikas were a lot more present in the 1940s but that doesn't mean they were less reprehensible. If a far-right group started using a brand-new symbol to signify their racist ideology, is it suddenly worth waiting for the sym…

Do you literally want to give the racists power to cherry pick from all of culture to take things that have existed for thousands of years and lock them away behind censorship? If someone is specifically using the Nazi version of the swastika , then by all means handle it. But if it's the non-Nazi version, then why do people not get to reclaim it?

Is putting a swastika on your Microsoft car truly the way to reclaim a symbol which, in the last century, has been used almost exclusively for hate? No. It's not the venue. There is no room for explanation or context. It's a symbol on a car. If you're going to reclaim a symbol—arguably the symbol MOST APPROPRIATED for hate—indiscriminately regardless of the context, you're either a fool or a troll.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#832

Post by jml7c5 »

pyuser583 wrote: post #750
riffraff wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but things can change to make the OK sign tabu too, can't they? We are saying that if you use a potentially racist sign (hand OK) in real life it's not a big deal, since you're not using it in conjunction with other racist stuff. At the same time you cannot use another potentially racist sign (the confederate flag), even if you were just trying to make a videogame version of "The Dukes of Hazzard" and are not trying…

So all racists have to do is adopt something as a “inside” symbol, then publicly advertise its “real” meaning, and everyone rushes to avoid it no matter how common it is. I could see white supremecists doing this for fun.

Amusingly, given the starting point for this discussion, what you've described part of how the "OK" sign became associated with racism. In 2017, someone on 4chan's /pol/ board suggested "Operation O-KKK": flood Twitter etc with warnings about the supposedly racist meaning of the "OK" gesture. The initial target of the hoax was the regular "are you all right?" sign, but the inverted "circle game" version came under fire as well. Later, after the hoax had run its course, those who are wont to "own the libs" used it ironically as a joke. Time passes, only the most dedicated continue to use it, and its meaning becomes less a farce and more a serious signal.

(There is a similar, earlier sign used by a milita group called the "Three Percenters", but that was not the source of the spread. They are an extreme libertarian group, not a white supremacy one. Though one can imagine some overlap. Their hand sign became so closely associated with white supremacy partially because of the 4chan hoax.)

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#833

Post by [deleted] »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #827
marcusverus wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Following the declaration of secession by South Carolina on December 20, 1860, its authorities demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, Major Robert Anderson of the U.S. Army surreptitiously moved his small command from the vulnerable Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress built on an island controlling the entrance of Charleston Har…

SC initiated hostilities by seceding. It is a clear attack on a nation to secede from it, something that is classified as treason.

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#834

Post by ceejayoz »

iamstupidsimple wrote: post #805
ceejayoz wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your comedy act leaves an audience member trained to do Nazi salutes, yes, I oppose it.

Then you are not in favour of free speech, and logically should believe that mainstream comedians like Jimmy Kimmel, Jack Whitehall, Jimmy Carr, etc.. should all be deplatformed and their lives destroyed, just like this man's. They've all said terrible, mean, things to formulate jokes. Or does your rule only apply when the little guy does something offensive?

> Then you are not in favour of free speech

Correct. I'm in favor of certain restrictions on speech; I think Germany's bans on Nazi slogans and symbols are a good model.

I draw a distinction between "I trained a dog to make Nazi salutes" and comedy routines, yes. It appears the UK does as well.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#835

Post by genoapol »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #730
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

There's a different aspect of all this that troubles me and it has to do with projecting malice into people when it's unwarranted. One example is all the actors and such who did positive and loving impersonations of people which happened to involve wearing dark makeup. I completely understand the this practice is distasteful, but do we really need to go back years and cancel Kimmel for impersonating Chris Rock from a…

>We need more love in the world, we need to give people the space to be ignorant or wrong without being evil so we can welcome them out of the darkness instead of forcing them into it.

I agree with this sentiment but history shows how quickly this can spiral out of control. If these symbols (stars and bars and all its variations) were not directly tied to domestic terrorism and other various forms of violence, it would be easier to create room for learning.

Unless a balance is struck, we leave historically disenfranchised minorities to be potential future victims of the majority's ignorance.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#836

Post by tpsssing655 »

milesskorpen wrote: post #590
tpsssing655 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because its their ancestors their land and their pride. in your eyes they fought to preserve slavery, in their they fought bravely against the more powerful north to preserve their homes.

Their homes wouldn't have been at risk except that their leaders (elected leaders!) decided to secede in order to protect the institution of slavery.

And your point is? They shouldn't fight an invasion because of their leaders? they should just let themselves be pillaged?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#837

Post by iamstupidsimple »

ceejayoz wrote: post #834
iamstupidsimple wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you are not in favour of free speech, and logically should believe that mainstream comedians like Jimmy Kimmel, Jack Whitehall, Jimmy Carr, etc.. should all be deplatformed and their lives destroyed, just like this man's. They've all said terrible, mean, things to formulate jokes. Or does your rule only apply when the little guy does something offensive?

> Then you are not in favour of free speech Correct. I'm in favor of certain restrictions on speech; I think Germany's bans on Nazi slogans and symbols are a good model. I draw a distinction between "I trained a dog to make Nazi salutes" and comedy routines, yes. It appears the UK does as well.

How can you be against free speech when all other freedoms stem from free speech? This is why I don't like what Germany and the UK are doing - any country without true free speech (barring death threats or incitement to violence, etc..) is not really free.

Also, the UK has free speech, just not on online platforms and I'd like to see that distinction ended.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#838

Post by egberts »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

The entire Deaf community also has a beef with those who may object to certain signs. We're about inclusivity without any connotations associated with each sign because they are a communication tools. (Same for SCUBA divers and SEAL teams).

The faux outrage can step aside while we sign to each other in relative peace and comfort.

But what happens if hearing people started seeing our signs and get offended and (gasp) started shooting at us; oh wait, that has happened already and all too often.

For that, get off of us. Signs are a communication tool, even the offensive FUCK YOU ones.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#839

Post by ric2b »

mkbkn wrote: post #758
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

Swastika is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. I wonder why it'still considered "taboo" in the Western society in the information-age.

Isn't it oriented in the reverse, though? It's not the same symbol.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#840

Post by egberts »

grawprog wrote: post #820
js2 wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder This was going around my college friends in the early 90s, predating Malcom in the Middle (2000-2006). I have no idea where it originated.

I never knew, I know that's what popularized it for kids around my school around grade 5 or 6. Now I'm curious where that actually came from.

It was popularized in 1976 in Ste. Saint Marie, Michigan as we started doing that in our high school, this circle game.

That is, until someone can chime in an earlier date.

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