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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#581

Post by redisman »

jcranmer wrote: post #435
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of the culture here.

Have you never been to rural NY? The Confederate flag flies all over the place there, and I rather suspect that very few of those flying it are doing so because of Southern heritage.

I've seen it in Europe too and those guys definitely couldn't even name one southern state. They did find something about the symbolism very appealing though. Something about some group of humans being superior to others, I can't recall exactly.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#582

Post by Lendal »

ars wrote: post #515
Lendal wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dukes of Hazzard was my second-favorite TV show as a kid, (next to CHiPs.) It saddens me that the symbol was foisted on me and millions of other kids throughout history and not just from the TV show. Turns out there was never a time that that flag stood for anyone's "heritage." It always was a symbol of hate. I don't know why people would do that to children. Now memories of my childhood are darkened, and millions of…

It was not used as a racist symbol in the show. That's what this whole discussion is about. For example: "After the first season, it distressed producer Gy Waldron that the cast was entirely white. So in subsequent seasons, visiting federal agents that investigated Boss Hogg were black, as was the sheriff of the adjoining Chickasaw County." https://www.neatorama.com/2011/05/04/23-facts-you-might-not-...

Maybe they had innocent motives, or maybe they didn't. It's irrelevant. Attempting to normalize a symbol that for millions of people stands for brutality, terrorism and oppression, doesn't change its nature for that population of people.

Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us. They have their culture and we have ours. Well, what if 10 years down the road there was a new hit show in the Arab world where the characters were all very charismatic, wholesome and diverse, but their car had an ISIS flag on it?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#583

Post by pathseeker »

acdha wrote: post #374
haram_masala wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is accurate. There are, or perhaps until recently were, a large number of people in the South who flew that flag out of a sense of regional pride and cohesion, and who had absolutely no problem with black people. Of course, that's not enough to forgive flying it - as a Jew I wouldn't be happy about a German person flying a Swastika, even if the only meaning it had for them was a benign pride in Ger…

The problem is that this history is rooted in racism: the Confederacy was founded to preserve the institution of slavery (people who claim otherwise need to read the states’ own declarations) and the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag most commonly displayed has a long history from the Jim Crow era of being used to intimidate free Black people. Just as someone proud of being German has a wide variety of symbols th…

So the problem is you are conflating southern pride (pride in the culture) with the confederacy. Many people in the south used to view the confederate flag as representative of southern pride (iced tea on a porch while complaining about the heat).

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#584

Post by Smoosh »

skinkestek wrote: post #545
FireBeyond wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what you got out of this, I'm not sure what to say. I even used the SCUBA shop, which is next door, for reference. No-one that I've seen has advocated that the OK sign be abandoned for divers. I've been mid mouthful at a restaurant when a server has asked how my food is and I've made this sign and not been called a racist. However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, sta…

A bloke (and a less privileged bloke at that, 75% non white according to himself) was recently fired because someone had shot a photo of him resting his hand out the window of a company truck in what lpoked line an OK hand. It was discussed here a few days ago. Stop firing the innocent or something, from the Atlantic.

oh, come on. "resting his hand ... what looked like" ???

Wasn't the story that people in another car taunted him and urged him to make the symbol, and they recorded it when he did? He may have not known what the meaning was (I believe that is what he claimed) but that is an entirely different defense to make than "I wasn't doing it, it just looked a bit like it".

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#585

Post by ideals »

gruez wrote: post #126
ideals wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start your own blog. The internet isnt just SV companies. There's nothing stopping you from creating your own platform that espouses your ideals.

I think his point is that at the end of the day, you're going to be dependent on someone. With a self hosted blog you're dependent on at least an ISP and registrar, both of which are private entities.

Your ISP is a utility. Twitter is not. Your ISP cannot block you from hosting your own blog on your own servers. Even if your ISP did, there are places which will allow you to host whatever you want. Alex Jones is still online for example. WikiLeaks is still online.

This argument is always about people complaining that they don't get to participate on the big platforms. But if there was so much demand for people shouting about racist loser shit online there would be a big platform for it. It's their responsibility to build it, not Twitter's

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#586

Post by generalk »

daenz wrote: post #335
generalk wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. If I own a website or a newspaper or the patch of ground in front of my house, I get to decide what information goes there. Are you arguing that there should be some legal provision that says anyone can publish anything on your website, or newspaper, or ground, and you don't get a say in it? That seems unreasonable.

I am arguing for a space online that is publicly owned, maintained by the government, easily accessible by your average person, with the same very few restrictions on free speech that exist in the real world.

I think that would be an interesting thing to have, and the implementation of it would have to solve a lot of issues (equal access to technology, etc) that need solving badly.

I'm also glad we finally got to the actual thing you want to see change.

Curious though: what would having this space solve?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#587

Post by holler »

VRay wrote: post #521
holler wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that doesn't mean everyone else knows though, and it at least detoxifies the conversation to observers

Hearthstone and some other online games only allow you to say a handful of positive messages to your opponents. Of course, what happened is that this somehow made interactions MORE toxic, since any time I say "Good game" or "Well played!" my opponent assumes I'm being sarcastic, and starts repeatedly blasting me with the same emote again and again.

ahh, the same thing happens in Rocket League

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#588

Post by redisman »

roenxi wrote: post #572
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's technically private property. I agree with the direction, but that is the core of a bad argument; if a principle doesn't apply in important cases then it isn't really a principle. It is exactly the same as the "free speech except for things I don't like" crowd. Companies can and should have t…

Besides- how is Forza Motorsports in any way like a public utility? It is one of hundreds of online racing games run by a private company.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#589

Post by prepend »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #478
_y5hn wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the problem needing solving?

Depends who you ask. Some might say toxic expressions. Others might say people who declaim toxic expressions. Clearly MS has the latter goal in mind. I can imagine a very reasonable argument for this. Someone who puts a Confederate flag on their car seems highly likely to engage in other toxic behaviors. Just like someone who calls someone a nigger once is likely to do it again. So we use the behaviors as a signal of…

Some may say it’s not a significant problem and it’s cheaper for MS to make a PR statement about doing something than spending effort in moderation software changes.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#590

Post by milesskorpen »

tpsssing655 wrote: post #361
csours wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's completely understandable. I'm talking about how to view the statues and flags and things that people are still defending.

because its their ancestors their land and their pride. in your eyes they fought to preserve slavery, in their they fought bravely against the more powerful north to preserve their homes.

Their homes wouldn't have been at risk except that their leaders (elected leaders!) decided to secede in order to protect the institution of slavery.
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