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Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#391

Post by poutrathor »

pm90 wrote: post #124
eggsnbacon1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has and will be debated forever. Given the choice though, I think its much clearer that letting in wealthy educated people is a net benefit.

Your belief does not make it a reality. Studies have shown that all kinds of immigration greatly benefits host countries, and especially aging Western ones with declining populations.

It's country dependant (and study dependant) : https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2020/01/23/un-rapport...

Most studies does not account for what people dislike in immigration : fracturing social contract and communities shattering. Frictions in the salad bowl are poorly translated to economic figures but folks live it everyday.

So look carefully at what each study says and its perimeter.

One should curb down its sureness of that matter.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#392

Post by lostmsu »

koheripbal wrote: post #363
numakerg wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then shouldn't the government be closing this loophole and taxing whatever vehicle they use to transfer wealth? I'd criticize an individual for evading taxes, but a "group" of people is just doing what people do. EDIT: If you want to talk about the "functional" value of immigrants, then you need to get to the root purpose and bring in whoever is having the most kids.

You are assuming that money ever gets to Canada. Half the time it's just kept in an account in Panama to be used when the family is on vacation or wants to buy a second home in another country. Either that or it's brought in in literal cash. That's why the stories of Chinese home buyer showing up with literal briefcases in cash are all over the place.

The later should be tracked and treated as tax evasion.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#393

Post by UIZealot »

skissane wrote: post #214
free_rms wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK running HK in the first place was stealing from China. They originally got it as part of the peace settlement from the Opium Wars, then signed the 99-year lease later when the Qing empire was in terminal decline and unable to resist.

If UK had not switched recognition from ROC to PRC, they could have returned it to ROC instead. UK could have demanded a lease renewal from PRC as the price for switching recognition. Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered.

> Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered.

China doesn't like to take credit for that, but personally I believe its alliance with the West was instrumental in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#394

Post by UIZealot »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #244
sasum wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CPC cannot be colonialist against Hong Kong. HK has been part of China for thousands of years and is ethnically Chinese. Hong Kong exists today because Britain used military power to force the Chinese government to import opium. In the process they annexed Hong Kong. Not to mention, HKers DO NOT want independence. In a recent poll only 20% of HKers desire independence.

While HKers are Chinese, they speak an entirely different language than Beijing that isn't even mutually intelligible. This is part of the manipulation of the narrative by the Chinese government. It refuses to even recognize that these are truly different languages and calls them "varieties of Chinese" or "dialects of Chinese" when Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are f…

> Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are from one another.

Please kindly refrain from making statements about things you clearly know very little about.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#395

Post by DanBC »

philwelch wrote: post #294
DanBC wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd be wrong. A bill passed its 3rd reading in house of commons. It needs to get through the House of Lords. It still has some way before becoming law. https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/common... And when the UK crashes out of EU with no deal we'll inevitably re-allow free movement of EU workers because we have no bargaining power.

> And when the UK crashes out of EU with no deal It’s incredible how many times people have cried wolf about this.

If we have a deal that's going to include freedom of movement; if we don't have a deal we're going to be forced to include freedom of movement to get trading.

There's no version of the UK in 2022 that doesn't have freedom of movement for EU citizens.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#396

Post by sasum »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #244
sasum wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CPC cannot be colonialist against Hong Kong. HK has been part of China for thousands of years and is ethnically Chinese. Hong Kong exists today because Britain used military power to force the Chinese government to import opium. In the process they annexed Hong Kong. Not to mention, HKers DO NOT want independence. In a recent poll only 20% of HKers desire independence.

While HKers are Chinese, they speak an entirely different language than Beijing that isn't even mutually intelligible. This is part of the manipulation of the narrative by the Chinese government. It refuses to even recognize that these are truly different languages and calls them "varieties of Chinese" or "dialects of Chinese" when Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are f…

Your "logic" doesn't make any sense. Cantonese is spoken in mainland China. It's an official language of China. There are hundreds of languages spoken in China. Just because Mandarin is the dominant language doesn't mean that China is imperialist for imposing security laws on HK, a territory they control and a territory that WANTS to be controlled by China.

And to expand on your point about wanting to empower self determination, then you should stand with the HK government against foreign influence in HK domestic affairs. There is ample evidence of the United States pumping millions of dollars into the protests. The leaders of the protests have met with US officials to get their support. This is not normal. Imagine if news came out that BLM leaders in certain cities were meeting with Xi or Putin, and receiving millions in funds.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#397

Post by sasum »

UIZealot wrote: post #394
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While HKers are Chinese, they speak an entirely different language than Beijing that isn't even mutually intelligible. This is part of the manipulation of the narrative by the Chinese government. It refuses to even recognize that these are truly different languages and calls them "varieties of Chinese" or "dialects of Chinese" when Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are f…

> Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are from one another. Please kindly refrain from making statements about things you clearly know very little about.

Even if this were true, there are millions who speak Cantonese in mainland China. And Hong Kong is still part of China. Regardless of whether or not some westerner on Hacker News wants to believe that.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#398

Post by tripletao »

sasum wrote: post #396
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While HKers are Chinese, they speak an entirely different language than Beijing that isn't even mutually intelligible. This is part of the manipulation of the narrative by the Chinese government. It refuses to even recognize that these are truly different languages and calls them "varieties of Chinese" or "dialects of Chinese" when Cantonese or Taiwanese are more distant from Mandarin than the Romance languages are f…

Your "logic" doesn't make any sense. Cantonese is spoken in mainland China. It's an official language of China. There are hundreds of languages spoken in China. Just because Mandarin is the dominant language doesn't mean that China is imperialist for imposing security laws on HK, a territory they control and a territory that WANTS to be controlled by China. And to expand on your point about wanting to empower self de…

In what sense do you believe HK wants to be controlled by Beijing? The last poll I saw put support for the pro-democracy protests at 51%, opposition at 34%. Opposition to the security law is 56%, support 34%. Hardly unanimous, but in a democracy that would count as a strong public position.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-poll-ex...

As you note, a much smaller fraction want independence. That doesn't mean they want to be subject to PRC law, though I agree the thing the people of HK seem to want (autonomy without independence) isn't usually how international (intranational?) relations work, especially when the "protecting power" is a dictatorship.

And yes, the linguistic argument was embarrassing; Westerners should learn more about Asia, and he'll surely abandon such arguments once he learns what language they speak in Taiwan. You could likewise learn more about life with Western-style freedoms, and you might understand why the people of Hong Kong (and America, misinformed as we might often be) so value them.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#399

Post by sasum »

tripletao wrote: post #398
sasum wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "logic" doesn't make any sense. Cantonese is spoken in mainland China. It's an official language of China. There are hundreds of languages spoken in China. Just because Mandarin is the dominant language doesn't mean that China is imperialist for imposing security laws on HK, a territory they control and a territory that WANTS to be controlled by China. And to expand on your point about wanting to empower self de…

In what sense do you believe HK wants to be controlled by Beijing? The last poll I saw put support for the pro-democracy protests at 51%, opposition at 34%. Opposition to the security law is 56%, support 34%. Hardly unanimous, but in a democracy that would count as a strong public position. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-poll-ex... As you note, a much smaller fraction want independence. That doe…

As you mention, the article you link says that the majority of HKers want to be a part of China. That's where I'm getting that from. I do believe China could do better in terms of securing individual liberty for their citizens, but if that comes at the cost of its sovereignty, then obviously some concessions have to be made.

For example, the majority of people would agree that they do not want their taxes to be raised (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1714/taxes.aspx). Those same people might not like the ramifications of that, but that wouldn't necessarily change their opinion.

Back to HK. The existence of HK as a semi-autonomous region that is still part of China provides a great way for foreign powers to extend their influence into China's domestic affairs. In this scenario, the US clearly has its hand in HK domestic affairs. US leaders are meeting with protest leaders. US organizations are funding protests. Flip this with domestic affairs in America, and you'll see that there is something deeply wrong with this picture. Although it isn't 1 to 1, imagine if China were funding BLM protests and inviting BLM leaders to Beijing.

I'm going to add a few links which support these claims if you were unaware. You could find some more yourself if you'd like:

US role in Hong Kong protests - https://www.workers.org/2019/06/42820/?fbclid=IwAR2ZjOUSl2Bt...

US Senator Ted Cruz visiting Hong Kong - https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1182937896795246593

American Gov’t, NGOs Fuel and Fund Hong Kong Anti-Extradition Protests - https://www.mintpressnews.com/hong-kong-protests/259202/

Sidenote: I am American. I have learned about Western-style "freedoms" and find them very contradictory with America as it exists today. For example, the American rate of incarceration is the highest in the world, surpassing even the highest rates of incarceration of Stalin's USSR. Obviously, not everything China does is good and not everything America does is bad, but I'd encourage you to take a more critical eye to any mainstream Western sentiment on foreign countries, especially when that sentiment usually results in thousands being killed.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#400

Post by tripletao »

sasum wrote: post #399
tripletao wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense do you believe HK wants to be controlled by Beijing? The last poll I saw put support for the pro-democracy protests at 51%, opposition at 34%. Opposition to the security law is 56%, support 34%. Hardly unanimous, but in a democracy that would count as a strong public position. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-poll-ex... As you note, a much smaller fraction want independence. That doe…

As you mention, the article you link says that the majority of HKers want to be a part of China. That's where I'm getting that from. I do believe China could do better in terms of securing individual liberty for their citizens, but if that comes at the cost of its sovereignty, then obviously some concessions have to be made. For example, the majority of people would agree that they do not want their taxes to be raise…

> As you mention, the article you link says that the majority of HKers want to be a part of China. That's where I'm getting that from.

There's certainly a contradiction there. I'd attribute HK public opinion against independence as recognition that they're geopolitically unable to exist as an independent country, and a desire for the perceived next best thing (which they really did have until recently), and not as any actual desire to be controlled by the PRC. How else do you explain public opposition to the national security law?

> I do believe China could do better in terms of securing individual liberty for their citizens, but if that comes at the cost of its sovereignty, then obviously some concessions have to be made.

And I'm not sure how Hong Kong's previous autonomy (or any other freedoms) would come at the cost of the PRC's sovereignty? If the CCP wanted to hold democratic elections tomorrow for all territory within their military control, then they could do it. Inertia being what it is, they'd probably even win! No outside force is preventing the PRC's government from responding to the will of the mainland's or HK's people; but instead, Beijing is transitioning from the pragmatic sort of technocracy that Deng Xiaoping introduced to plain dictatorship. The end of Hong Kong's autonomy is just another step down that path.

Finally, countries express opinions about the affairs of other countries all the time. The USA exists in part because of French meddling in a British colony. Everyone likes to do it, and no one likes it when others do it to them. As long as it's happening openly, I can't get too upset either way. America is certainly flawed in many important ways, but I can express those ways openly without fear for my personal safety, and that free expression has historically resulted in what I consider positive change. Something close to that used to be true in HK, and now it isn't. I suspect that became inevitable with the handover and with Xi's self-coronation, but I think it's a great loss.

ETA: And I'm not sure whether it's by coincidence, but your points closely track Beijing's usual talking points against the USA (sovereignty / "internal matter", incarceration rate, etc.). If you don't mind sharing, where did you develop these beliefs?

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