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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#651

Post by Dylan16807 »

freehunter wrote: post #629
Dylan16807 wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other capabilities would only be removed if they broke other rules. That's not a gradual process toward banning. That's a completely unrelated disciplinary measure.

So basically, if someone murders another person we should ban them from murdering people but not put them in jail. They should only go to jail if they commit multiple unrelated crimes.

Are you serious.

Also this was just an explanation of how it's an option, to the person that didn't understand how. You might want to do a full ban, you might not.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#652

Post by freehunter »

filoleg wrote: post #642
freehunter wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, if someone murders another person we should ban them from murdering people but not put them in jail. They should only go to jail if they commit multiple unrelated crimes.

>if someone murders another person we should ban them from murdering people but not put them in jail. If conflating the act of violently taking someone's life away irreversibly to displaying an offensive custom skin in a videogame sounds like a reasonable and genuine argument to you, I don't think there is anything anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I agree with the parent comment that restricting customizatio…

Yes I conflate the Confederate flag with violently taking someone's life away irreversibly. Because that's the meaning behind that symbol.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#653

Post by ars »

Lendal wrote: post #582
ars wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not used as a racist symbol in the show. That's what this whole discussion is about. For example: "After the first season, it distressed producer Gy Waldron that the cast was entirely white. So in subsequent seasons, visiting federal agents that investigated Boss Hogg were black, as was the sheriff of the adjoining Chickasaw County." https://www.neatorama.com/2011/05/04/23-facts-you-might-not-...

Maybe they had innocent motives, or maybe they didn't. It's irrelevant. Attempting to normalize a symbol that for millions of people stands for brutality, terrorism and oppression, doesn't change its nature for that population of people. Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us. They have their culture and we have ours. Well, what if 10 years down the road there was a new hit sho…

> Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us.

What?? How in the universe are you getting there? Talk about a strawman!

The real explanation is much simpler: They didn't know the flag was racist. Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist.

I mean, even the producer of the show, who went out of his way to hire black actors, did not even realize that about the flag.

Today, things are different, I think most people know the flag is racist. But in the past? I suspect the vast majority did not realize it.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#654

Post by cgrealy »

larsenwolf wrote: post #624
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

At my company we’ve taken a stand against cancel culture. We do not believe that anyone should be compelled to sign away their freedoms as part of our working relationship. The right to free speech is just that—a RIGHT. There’s more than enough legal precedence to manage our workforce effectively.

Can you elaborate? I don't really get how this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#655

Post by Dylan16807 »

freehunter wrote: post #652
filoleg wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if someone murders another person we should ban them from murdering people but not put them in jail. If conflating the act of violently taking someone's life away irreversibly to displaying an offensive custom skin in a videogame sounds like a reasonable and genuine argument to you, I don't think there is anything anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I agree with the parent comment that restricting customizatio…

Yes I conflate the Confederate flag with violently taking someone's life away irreversibly. Because that's the meaning behind that symbol.

Symbols are not literally the things they represent.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#656

Post by ceejayoz »

iamstupidsimple wrote: post #638
ceejayoz wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia on the act: > On 19 December 2012, to strike a balance between freedom of speech and criminality, the Director of Public Prosecutions issued interim guidelines, clarifying when social messaging is eligible for criminal prosecution under UK law. Only communications that are credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking (such as aggressive Internet trolling) which specifically targets an individu…

Then why was this guy[0] sued by the Scottish Government for a joke, offensive as it may be? Prosecution specifically labeled intent to cause offense as the crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan

He was fined for training a dog to make the Nazi salute to the phrase "Do you wanna gas the Jews?".

I'm 100% fine with slipping that far down the slope.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#657

Post by cgrealy »

takeda wrote: post #371
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

I understand removing confederate flags and movements from public areas, but I don't think it is necessary to ban people for using it in games like Forza. I mean Microsoft can do whatever they want, but it is overreacting. Most people who would use it wouldn't have any bad meaning behind it and most likely would be used more as a joke. When playing Forza I remember I liked skin that made my car look like a beater car…

The difference is that your beater car skin doesn't remind an entire demographic of a time a whole bunch of people went to war so they could keep said demographic as property.

If you want to be funny about the confederate flag, go do an open mike. There's no context in a racing game... so while it might be some hilarious meta-commentary on the ridiculousness of racism, the only thing another player sees is "there's someone who wishes they could still keep slaves".

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#658

Post by mynameisvlad »

lopmotr wrote: post #522
jjjensen90 wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize you've made a weak straw man argument here, but there are important distinctions that need to be made in discussions about platform/user base moderation. While there are classes of people protected from discrimination by civil rights laws, what is not protected is discrimination or refusal of service for customers based on what they do rather than who they are . Banning someone for cheating, harassment, cir…

Sure. But Paulchap made a general statement without any of those distinctions. People often make such broad statements of belief when they're trying to make their position sound powerful and important but end up contradicting their actual beliefs. If you restrict it to a certain case or list a bunch of exceptions, it sounds less fundamental or important and makes it look more arbitrary. But that's more honest. Most p…

Paulchap literally said "as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS".

Discrimination against race or another protected class falls outside of the "legal bounds of the ToS".

They already accounted for the case you're trying to argue against.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#659

Post by bastawhiz »

naruvimama wrote: post #417
jeegsy wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Heck, in 2020, MS just voted to remove confederate symbol from the state flag. SO I dont think the comparison is all there. My concern with these sort of deplatforming moves while understandable, is they tend to drive these bigoted ideas underground. So maybe they cant express it publicly but boy, do they find other ways to d…

Swastika is yet another example of "western universalism", it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US. Whereas for Asians, native Americans & for much of the ancient world it has entirely different meanings.

> it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US

Seventeen million people died in the Holocaust. That number is larger than the dollar amount that many of the companies on this website raise. That's more people than you'll meet in your entire lifetime, perhaps more than you'll _see_ in your lifetime. This is the population of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston put together. Those people were physically destroyed by folks identifying with that symbol.

It's really, really hard to say this symbol doesn't carry hate universally—even if a Buddhist practitioner were to use it—because putting it on your video game car on _a global game_ whose audience is ~100% folks who are well-aware of nazism (and, in fact, people whose histories are tainted by the effects of the Holocaust). But more to the point, the confederate flag _was invented_ to represent hate. It had no established use before the confederacy. Pedantry about whether swastikas are universally racist or not is pointless, because the topic at hand is about a symbol which is universally recognized as one of hate.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#660

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

ars wrote: post #499
filleduchaos wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder that the Confederate battle flag was in use for less than five years and solely as an icon of a conflict that was very much about the (rather racist) keeping of chattel slaves. Before trotting out the "it's a symbol of heritage" line, ask yourself exactly what that heritage is.

I will admit that until about 2 years ago I had absolutely no idea the flag was racist. I thought it was simply a southern symbol. Some comment I saw online made me research it, which then made me aware of other symbolism it has. So don't be so quick to assume racism in those who fly it.

Exactly. Just keep in mind when on this site that most people here didn't grow up in the region, they don't get it.
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