MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars • Hacker News Board

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#541

Post by whalesalad » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #283

Why ban the players, and not just the design? I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Microsoft could use some kind of super-cool AI-drived ML-based image recognition to replace the flag with a rainbow f…

> Why ban the players, and not just the design?

The goal is not to censor the image, it is to change the behavior of society. The goal is to punish bad behavior and set a good example.

The reason we are in this mess in the first place is that people turn the other way and sweep bad behavior under the rug instead of facing it head on and addressing it.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#542

Post by proc0 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #402

proc0 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question! The flag itself is not a problem. It won't change my mind for sure. I've seen it in history books, the only difference would be if somehow I feel threatened by the other player holding Nazi beliefs - which I'm not because we defeated them. We can defeat them again, no problem. I would be ok with taking measure if somehow a bunch of a Nazi flags started FLOODING the game. This would be its own problem h…

I'd rather there be no nazis, and if there are nazis, I'd rather they feel uncomfortable expressing that; and if they do feel comfortable expressing that, I want to be able to report them and have them banned. It's absurd that one must have to deal with hateful political views in a game about racing cars.

"I'd rather they feel uncomfortable expressing that"

How is this useful though? Are you afraid to adopt those views? Are you saying ONLY others are in this danger of adopting those views (if so, why are you so special)?

At best you are making them stealthy and they are playing with you but you don't know, and at worse their beliefs are reinforced because they already hate people.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#543

Post by zeveb » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #504

philwelch wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, characterizing the American Revolution as a war to preserve slavery was literally the central focus of a project that was published in the New York Times and that public schools are adopting as curriculum. It isn’t fair to characterize it as “nutpicking” when the nuts hold that degree of institutional power. FWIW I agree with you about the Confederacy and about Confederate symbology, and I think I said…

They're not wrong. For the Southern colonies, participation in the American Revolution was part of their effort to maintain slavery.

> For the Southern colonies, participation in the American Revolution was part of their effort to maintain slavery.

Slavery was legal to some extent in every colony, northern or southern, throughout the Revolution. Some states had (laudably) started to abolish it in whole or in part by the end of the war. Interestingly, Wikipedia indicates that the last Pennsylvanian slaves died in the 1840s, which seems surprisingly late.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#544

Post by pmiller2 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

filleduchaos wrote: post #344

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

Reminder that the Confederate battle flag was in use for less than five years and solely as an icon of a conflict that was very much about the (rather racist) keeping of chattel slaves. Before trotting out the "it's a symbol of heritage" line, ask yourself exactly what that heritage is.

Exactly. I would probably believe someone who spent many thousands of dollars to own one of the 20-50 existing, authentic Confederate battle flags [0] if they said they kept it as a symbol of "heritage." That's a real, historical artifact, worthy of preservation so future generations can understand what it represented.

I do not believe those who spend a few hundred to have it tattooed on their bodies, or people who buy one for $7.50 from China off Amazon [1] when they say such things, because there's no value in displaying a representation of a thing that's historically represented nothing but hate.

Owning and preserving an authentic flag shows a commitment to history. Displaying a representation of it shows a commitment to hatred.

---

[0]: https://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/17/value-confederate-flag-c...

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/ZHENGYU-Polyester-Double-Sided-Milita...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#545

Post by skinkestek » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #519

donmcronald wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I've heard of that. I can just imagine being somewhere loud and giving the ok / perfect symbol to a friend across the room and then being called a racist. Damn, that's scary.

If that's what you got out of this, I'm not sure what to say. I even used the SCUBA shop, which is next door, for reference. No-one that I've seen has advocated that the OK sign be abandoned for divers. I've been mid mouthful at a restaurant when a server has asked how my food is and I've made this sign and not been called a racist. However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, sta…

A bloke (and a less privileged bloke at that, 75% non white according to himself) was recently fired because someone had shot a photo of him resting his hand out the window of a company truck in what lpoked line an OK hand.

It was discussed here a few days ago. Stop firing the innocent or something, from the Atlantic.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#546

Post by cortic » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

There should be some legal consequences to including terms like offensive and otherwise objectionable. They are so very vague and subjective they could be used to apply bigoted, sexist even racist standards on customers.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#547

Post by pmiller2 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #510

runako wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> attached to southern identity Southerner here. The South is a very diverse place with a sizable African-American population. Perhaps I'm just missing all the African-Americans who proudly fly the Confederate battle flag, but my perception is the flag is used by a small subset of white southerners as an anti-virtue-signaling device. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag…

The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag...? No, and nothing in my comments suggested that. It makes sense that they wouldn't since their relatives probably didn't after the war. For many people, their relatives did identify with the flag. It probably started a…

> The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many.

Could that be because there isn't just one type of "southern heritage?" Do you really want to equate the southern heritage of black people in the south with those who fly the Confederate battle flag?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#548

Post by jniedrauer » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

shultays wrote: post #265

Interestingly hammer and sickle is not in the list

Why would it be? I don't recall it ever being used as a symbol of discrimination against one specific group... unless you mean landlords?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#549

Post by racl101 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

What if you're just a big fan of the Dukes of Hazzard? :(

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#550

Post by triceratops » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

Why not adopt a new symbol of Southern pride? Something with pickup trucks and horses, steers and cowboy hats, peaches and iced tea, guns and saxophones. You know, all the beloved and positive aspects of Southern culture and heritage. It seems very un-American to me to use the flag of a treasonous rebel army that attacked their fellow countrymen.