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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#381
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika." If you don't ban the person displaying the swastika, how can you possibly enforce banning swastikas? There must be a consequence for displaying the offending symbol, otherwise the rule is toothless. You remove the swastika, and the person just replaces it. What then? Just keep removing it and hoping the Nazi/edgelord/'troll' wil…

Ban the car --- either don't let them use it online, or don't show it to others. If an account gets a threshold number of cars banned, don't let them use customized cars online. If they're spouting hate on chat, ban them from chat too.

That seems like a lot of effort to address the symptoms, not the disease. The root issue is the user. Get rid of the user and you don't have to worry about all these half-measures.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"consequence" doesn't necessarily imply a punishment or something at odds with your freedom. For example: If you bad mouth a friend, they might no longer be your friend. This isn't a punishment for your actions or a restriction of your freedom.

Yes, but we're not talking about that here. Not being allowed to play a game you bought is a kind of punishment. Will they also ban anyone who posts and Hindu swastika? Or the face of Che Guevara? Or anything related to ancient Rome? Or anything related to the Ottomans? And I could keep going and going and going.

> Not being allowed to play a game you bought is a kind of punishment.

I agree that is wrong, but I disagree on the grounds of contract law, not speech rights. I do think MS is well within their rights to prevent you from playing their game for any reason they want (other than membership in a protected class), but they should refund your money.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#383

I am not very familiar with the American civil war. The way people talk about it seems weird to me though: it is as though the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred and they started a war in order to ensure their white supremacy- but mostly out of ignorance of the morals of this. I have a hard time believing the entire southern United States was only fighting for the right to own…

The declarations of secession are very explicit that it was about racism and slavery. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati... The racism wasn't a sudden thing. What was new was the movement to ban slavery, especially in new states, which would undo the political balance that had been put in the Constitution from the beginning. (The Constitution still gives extra power to those states.) The ele…

> What was new was the movement to ban slavery, especially in new states

Abolition wasn't a new thing in 1861. All the northern states had banned it in the decades after the revolutionary war. Indeed, slavery was banned in Georgia in 1735 when it was founded. The British Empire abolished slavery in 1833. Southern states in 1861 were fighting to preserve an institution that many people had recognized as evil for more than a century.

> which would undo the political balance that had been put in the Constitution from the beginning. (The Constitution still gives extra power to those states.)

You're mixing up two different things. The creation of a House with representation based on population and a Senate with a fixed number of Senators per state, which continues to exist today, was a compromise between big states and small states. Four of the seven states that were smaller than average and benefited from that arrangement had few to no enslaved people: New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and New Jersey and Connecticut. Conversely, three of the six states that were bigger than average and were hurt by that arrangement enslaved large numbers of people.

Additionally, the Constitution did not "give extra power" to slave states. It reduced the power of the slave states using an anti-slavery argument. Look at the text of the 14th amendment, which governs apportionment:

> Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.

Compare that to the 3/5 clause:

> Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Both then and now, the Constitution allocates votes based on the number of "persons" in each state, not just people who can vote. So today, the apportionment is based on a population count that includes children and non-citizens, not just adults over 18. Moreover, even in 1789, the Constitution deemed enslaved people to be "persons." It distinguished between "free persons" and "all other Persons" but both were "persons." So what would have happened if the 14th amendment text was in place in 1789? Slave states would have had even more representation, because the "number of persons in each State" would include enslaved people.

The anti-slavery argument was this: because slaveholding states treated some people like property, enslaved people should not be included in the "number of persons in each State." It partially succeeded in reducing the power of slave-holding states. It was a compromise with the devil, no doubt. But the idea that the Constitution increased the power of the slave states is false. Without the 3/5 clause, the slave states would have had even more power.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#384
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pride in what? Heritage of what? The South has hundreds of years of history. Why are the 4 years of the Confederacy so celebrated?

I see lots of people on the internet making the 4 year argument, and I have to admit it's a snappy quip, but I don't think the point is made entirely in good faith. I really do see it being flown as a symbol of rural and/or southern pride that is informed by, but largely disconnected from, the civil war other than as a historical symbol that broadly represents an opposition between rural folk and urbanites. I mean it…

The Nazi flag was in much longer actual use than the Confederate flags. If anything, the Nazi flag has a more legitimate "heritage" defense than the Confederate one.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pride in what? Heritage of what? The South has hundreds of years of history. Why are the 4 years of the Confederacy so celebrated?

It's also not the flag of the Confederacy (as in the nation). No one uses that. What everyone uses is the Confederate Battle Flag, which is specifically the flag of the army of secessionists. There's no rational argument that it represents Southern culture.

Interesting, I didn't know that there were multiple flags for the CSA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State.... It seems that the second and third did incorporate the battle flag as part of the design.

Wouldn't surprise me to see these people switch to one of the other, lesser-known variants to work around the ban.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It’s apples and oranges. Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. The actions of private companies on private property (virtual or otherwise) are an entirely different domain than government intervention. Even if you remove the censorship angle, it can be argued that moderating hate speech is simply good business sense. Pe…

> The actions of private companies on private property (virtual or otherwise) are an entirely different domain than government intervention. And yet, private businesses are subject to certain restrictions. For example, it is illegal to refuse service based on one's race or sex. I am not sure if companies are allowed to discriminate based on one's political views.

Like when the Colorado baker refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, and the Supreme Court ruled in his favor?

Based on this comment, it appears you have a poor understanding of what qualifies as a protected class and what they are protected from. You might want to brush up on that.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#387

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on the ... Forza decal platform?

I don't think it's a good faith claim that everyone using one of the banned symbols is a racist

1. The current flag of Japan is based off of one of the banned symbols

2. Probably the most famous car in pop culture uses one of the banned symbols. Microsoft has gone as far as banning parodies of the General Lee that have none of the controversial symbols[0]

If the flag of imperial Japan was banned due to its association with imperialism and colonialism [1], should the USA flag still be allowed[2]? IMO, the banning of the US flag would be excessive, but is also necessary if the rule is implemented in a fair fashion against all imperialist nations.

[0]: https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst162853_offen...

[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Japanese...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#388

Why ban the players, and not just the design? I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Microsoft could use some kind of super-cool AI-drived ML-based image recognition to replace the flag with a rainbow f…

In your online forum case, what exactly do you do when toxic users wisen up and start working around your filter? Do you ban them or just continue letting them flaunt the rules?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#389

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's technically private property. If platforms want to censor, there should be at least more oversight than what we have today.

In this instance, it’s a public company and one particular game. Some companies don’t allow you to wall hack or use aim assistants. Others will allow you to use hacked clients, like Minecraft anarchy servers. It should be up to the company to moderate, as you sign a TOS agreement with them when signing up or purchasing their game.

Government oversight is not needed here, because it’s a contract between an individual and a corporate entity.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. Let's replace Microsoft with Amazon. Should Amazon be able to produce "The Man in The High Castle?" Should "The Man In The High Castle" be available to watch? How about merchandise from the show? Would it be OK to have it?

Sure. Amazon should be allowed do that (and of course, there's a lot of context there; if they started putting swastikas, or confederate flags, on the cars in Top Gear there might be more eyebrows raised). It probably shouldn't be _compelled_ to carry all material containing swastikas, though.

Ah, so they did it all over NYC subway a few years ago. To a point where I had to do a double take before I realized it was just an Amazon promo.

There are quite a few Eastern Europeans and Jews in NYC. Why was that OK?

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