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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

danwang.co

441–450 of 452 posts

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? If the exact same person is treated in two different ways, and absolutely nothing changes except their profession, th…

> This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? > I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B I think you're unintentionally making my point for me. You may be missing the limitations of your singular example, and the arch…

> you lack charisma to such a degree

Not sure why you've decided to turn this into such a weird personal attack against the character of someone you've never met!

Pretty sure you're just trolling for effect so I'll just flag you and leave you to it.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? > I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B I think you're unintentionally making my point for me. You may be missing the limitations of your singular example, and the arch…

> you lack charisma to such a degree Not sure why you've decided to turn this into such a weird personal attack against the character of someone you've never met! Pretty sure you're just trolling for effect so I'll just flag you and leave you to it.

> Not sure why you've decided to turn this into such a weird personal attack against the character of someone you've never met!

> Pretty sure you're just trolling for effect so I'll just flag you and leave you to it.

It isn't a personal attack, it's just the truth. The fact that you think that social status is something you can conduct "experiments" against by presenting as one vocation or another, and not something that is the gradual accumulation of a lifetime of personal experiences, indicates that you don't really understand how social interactions work and so you are trying to simulate that using a rationalist, scientific method. But, this is a flawed approach, because it doesn't obviate but rather magnifies the observer bias -- you.

The problem for people like you is that you believe that your struggles with social status are generic (vocation based) rather than individualized (you). But the more likely case is that you are in a vocation that tends to attract people who have difficulties with social status. This is the same line of reasoning that people who self identify as "involuntarily celibate" take. It's a misattribution of cause and effect. You overindex on surface level factors (such as vocation) rather than on deeper factors (personality, charisma). Most importantly, there's a "schroedingers cat" type effect where your belief that your vocation negatively impacts your social status becomes a self fulfilling prophecy -- indeed, people will be reluctant to want to associate with /anyone/ who thinks that they are treated poorly on account of their vocation, because these kinds of people have a victomhood mentality that almost ensures they will project personal issues onto purported external factors!

You can go ahead and flag me if you want, but I think the idea you are espousing is really seductive and dangerous, and more common than I would like. Worst of all, it can seem accurate because it's a self fulfilling prophecy, as I indicated above. And that's why I feel the need to speak out against it -- I don't want other in technology to fall further into that trap.

If you feel you are lower status because of your vocation in technology, there are enough counterexamples available of it being vocation based that you ought to be able to reconsider whether that is the case. If not, I think you have some personal problems you need to work on.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? If the exact same person is treated in two different ways, and absolutely nothing changes except their profession, th…

> This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? > I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B I think you're unintentionally making my point for me. You may be missing the limitations of your singular example, and the arch…

> The reason you think that [...] has anything to do with it is

This is already bad, but

> you lack charisma to such a degree that

...crosses into personal attack. That's not allowed on HN, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't. You can easily make your substantive points without it anyhow. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

Edit: we've had to ask you this twice before. That's not cool:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20954954

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19051452

Worse, you got involved in another personal flamewar just a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23646853.

There's clearly a pattern here. I'm not going to ban you now because you've also posted good comments, but please don't post any more personal attacks to HN, and please avoid tedious tit-for-tat entanglements with other users where the argument slides further to the right of the page as it slides further down in quality.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#444
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? > I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B I think you're unintentionally making my point for me. You may be missing the limitations of your singular example, and the arch…

> The reason you think that [...] has anything to do with it is This is already bad, but > you lack charisma to such a degree that ...crosses into personal attack. That's not allowed on HN, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't. You can easily make your substantive points without it anyhow. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting…

> You can easily make your substantive points without it anyhow.

How would you have phrased it, then? Genuinely curious here.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#445
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason you think that [...] has anything to do with it is This is already bad, but > you lack charisma to such a degree that ...crosses into personal attack. That's not allowed on HN, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't. You can easily make your substantive points without it anyhow. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting…

> You can easily make your substantive points without it anyhow. How would you have phrased it, then? Genuinely curious here.

I don't know, because I don't understand what you were trying to say there, making it hard to extract a substantive point.

That's secondary though. Please don't miss the main point: personal attacks are not ok.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#446

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. This really struck home for me about 15 or so years ago. I was a "principal architect" at Travelocity, which meant that I was involved in driving the most complex technical decisions of the site. I felt like I was really doing well for myself - it was the top of the "tech track" there. One day, corporate asked people who had graduated from a set of local univer…

Who were they looking for to speak? The C-Suite? If so, why even send emails to everyone in the first place?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#447

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

True, though I'd say the main reason there are practically no women in CS is because women tend to be more social, and software engineering is one of the least social professions in existence. I would never recommend this profession to anyone who doesn't have the personality to be in front of a computer alone all day working on tedious puzzles.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#448
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in m…

Programmers have a bad reputation with Feminists. Hanging out in any online Feminist space is very illuminating - they have gone on many dates with people who do what we do, and they're contemptuously familiar with "us" as a class. If you're trying to date in a tech city, I think you pretty much have to do this - there are a lot of "tech bro" memes out there for you to step in on the first date. This prejudice seems…

What did the programmers commonly do that these females found revolting?

I've never lived in SF so maybe it's different there, but in my experience in the industry the "tech bro" thing is a complete myth. Most software engineers are just quiet nerds/geeks, mostly Asian + Indian, and are the absolute last thing from being "bros" (unless the word "bro" has been redefined and I never got the memo).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#449
post #165

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in m…

Although I agree with the sentiment here, you picked some pretty extreme examples. OF course a famous author and ex-president is going to have more respect than some anonymous corporate drone at Google. It'd be more weird if that wasn't the case.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#450
post #311

Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…

In my experience most professional software engineers don't actually code much in their free time. I feel like that's something that you do more when you're starting out (esp. if you're self-taught and need to build your resume), but as one gets older their priorities tend to shift towards building a family, pursuing other hobbies, etc. It's really tough to spend 8 hours/day at a job coding, and then spend your free time afterwards coding again.
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