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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#221

Post by soraminazuki »

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics.

For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's technically private property. If platforms want to censor, there should be at least more oversight than what we have today.

Another problem with censorship is that it's not always about being right or wrong. A lot of the time, it's more about power or popularity. Thankfully, many corporations today are in favor of diversity and inclusivity, at least on the surface. However, things do change, and it's not always for the better. There are worrying trends of growing authoritarianism worldwide, and I think now is a good time to consider how censorship could be used against us.

Finally, racists are racists and no amount of censorship won't change what they are. I think Snowden had a point when he said that the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#222

Post by kube-system »

Darmody wrote: post #212
kube-system wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. It sounds like they know exactly what it is. In some places, you can be prevented from saying something that others do not want you to say.

If you are going to be punished in any way for what you say, you don't have freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that there's nobody physically preventing you from talking.

"consequence" doesn't necessarily imply a punishment or something at odds with your freedom.

For example: If you bad mouth a friend, they might no longer be your friend. This isn't a punishment for your actions or a restriction of your freedom.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#223

Post by tpush »

andrew_eit wrote: post #111
s9w wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very soon even Facebook likes will be illegal in Germany if it's the "wrong" ones by the way. That law passed a week ago or two.

Please explain what law you are referring to - I have not heard anything of the sort.

They're probably referring to this: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/internet-hass-hetze-101.htm...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#224

Post by umvi »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #4

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

At the risk of being controversial... I'm going to go ahead and say that Japan doesn't care about racism like America does. Japanese people are extremely racist, but you just don't know it because Japan is 99+% Japanese with But the ethnic minorities that _do_ live there live in segregated apartment complexes, etc. to prevent "mixing with the natives".

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#225

Post by zeveb »

csours wrote: post #138
sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

I'll give you my personal standard: Did they act or campaign to make things worse for their fellow man (and woman)? In other words, did they simply act in the context of their time period, as other men in their position would, or did they specifically act to curtail the rights of others. This makes it very easy for me to condemn symbols of the Confederacy, because they specifically acted to preserve slavery. If anyon…

The southern states seceded to preserve slavery; slavery was and is evil and they were wrong to secede in order to preserve it. But secession was and is constitutional, given the Tenth Amendment and no constitutional provisions against secession or mandating a perpetual union; the states had a right to do it, even though it was wrong.

The southern armies did not fight for slavery: it was legal in the United States before, during and after the war. They did not even fight for independence: the seceding states were legally independent as soon as their secessions took effect. Rather, they fought to defend their homes from a foreign invader.

Two non-contradictory things may be true at once: secession to preserve slavery was utterly contemptible; fighting honourably in self-defense is praiseworthy.

Edit: That said, given that the flag in question is so closely associated with white supremacy, it is hard to be too incensed over the ban.

Of note, slavery remained legal in the United States until well after the military defeat of the Confederacy: Lee surrendered on the 9th of April; the last Confederate ship surrendered in England on the 6th of November; the 13th Amendment making most slavery unconstitutional was not ratified until the 6th of December.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#226

Post by daenz »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #192
daenz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online.

>While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online. Same place as with pre-online TV and radio I suppose. Free speech doesn't guarantee you an audience at the time and place of your choosing. Take public buildings like a Courthouse or City hall, sure you have Free Speech rights, but good luck interrupting a court hearing to get your message out (without being held in contempt by the J…

Do you not believe that people can stand on a public street corner and express their ideas freely, where many people will likely see and hear them? Your examples are edge cases (court rooms at midnight) that seem designed to suggest that no such places exists. They do exist, and I am asking where is there online version. Are you suggesting that the only way to exchange free speech online is for each passerby to create their own website and respond on their respective websites? I've seen people claim voter suppression for fewer hurdles. Or are you suggesting that it is the responsibility of a private entity to create and maintain a public square?

Where is the online public square? That's the point I am trying to make. And as others have pointed out, if you think having domain name and hosting is a public square, then you are ignoring all of the precedents of those things being removed by private entities.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#227

Post by markkanof »

csours wrote: post #138
sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

I'll give you my personal standard: Did they act or campaign to make things worse for their fellow man (and woman)? In other words, did they simply act in the context of their time period, as other men in their position would, or did they specifically act to curtail the rights of others. This makes it very easy for me to condemn symbols of the Confederacy, because they specifically acted to preserve slavery. If anyon…

Are you arguing that being a "grown up" means never offending other people? I'm really not trying to troll you, just not sure how to interpret your last sentence.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#228

Post by haram_masala »

UncleMeat wrote: post #17
pathseeker wrote: post #7

Honest question. For those of you happy that these censorship policies are being implemented by companies in reaction to pressure, do you believe that the ideal end-goal would be 'anti hate speech' laws like those of Germany?

To me, that'd be a good outcome for the confederate flag. It is a hate symbol and exists almost exclusively to project hatred towards black people.

I don't think this is accurate. There are, or perhaps until recently were, a large number of people in the South who flew that flag out of a sense of regional pride and cohesion, and who had absolutely no problem with black people. Of course, that's not enough to forgive flying it - as a Jew I wouldn't be happy about a German person flying a Swastika, even if the only meaning it had for them was a benign pride in German accomplishments.

Still, though, it's important to recognize the wholesome impulse to celebrate the South, as it is a distinct region with its own valuable culture. A few years back there was an attempt to replace the Stars and Bars with a new "Southern Pride" flag [1]. Predictably, it's bland garbage.

[1] http://thesouth.us/

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#229

Post by HeroOfAges »

pfraze wrote: post #156
cm2187 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a photo of the Che is a hate symbol. It is glorifying a psychopath who killed without a second thought for a genocidal ideology. That's my opinion. So do I get to get it removed everywhere because it offends me?

1. Spend time educating people on why Che doesn't deserve to be idolized 2. Garner support for his removal 3. Go to any company using or selling his image and use your support to have it removed You asked how it works, that's how it works

It would be wonderful if things actually played out that way. What I'm seeing, are elected officials caving in to mobs with torches and pitchforks. So no, if I think Che Guevara is a hate symbol, I need only muster up a few hundred individuals, cause damage to private property and presto! No more Che...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#230

Post by catalogia »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #4

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

For that matter, the swastika was still used by the Finnish Air Force until quite recently. I thought to double check this before posting and discovered news articles about the change posted within the past hour.

https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Finnish-Air-Force-...

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