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Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

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Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#61

Post by centimeter »

thiago_fm wrote: post #32

Well, there's definitely challenges in moving them to India. But given how technology is commoditised and honestly there are just amazing developers everywhere in the world, I don't see why they would stick paying $500k total comp for an engineer in silicon valley to change font size in a mobile app. For example, I moved from a third world country to a first one to work as a developer and people here aren't any bette…

The people clearing over half a million are probably (hopefully) not working on implementing UI tweaks.

The cost of hiring low quality labor to do your “soft” dev work (UI, web front end, etc.) is that you’ll probably end up with a badly done and frustrating-to-use interface with tons of bugs. See like 75% of websites.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#62

Post by collyw »

atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

$80K will get you good engineers in Europe. Not saying they would be better or worse, but the cost of living is higher and the culture is closer.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#63

Post by rubber_duck »

0xcafecafe wrote: post #14
Avalaxy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost of an engineer is way less than 80K in India. Here in the Netherlands a senior SE would be $80K. I see no reason to go to India instead of western Europe then.

I don't think it is "way less". 80K USD converts to 5,979K INR which is about the ballpark estimate some of the senior engineers I know make in India (one of them is working for the Western European company btw). One of the reasons to move to India would be the availability of talent even if it is at comparable cost. Companies like to scale and lack of talent is a risk they want to mitigate.

In my experience working with outsourcing agencies - "talent available" in India is filling headcount numbers. Good developers ask for similar wages as EU based ones and are equally hard to find, probably even harder because the market is filled with scammers (eg. on several occasions I would interview a competent guy and then the work would clearly get delegated to someone inexperienced)

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#64

Post by Ozzie_osman »

This is kind of about whether Uber views itself as a FAANG type software company (software as core competency, strong recruiting brand for tech-hub engineers) or a more operational business (software as a cost center).

Most companies end up having to choose one. If you're the latter, you absolutely don't try competing with FAANG for the same talent.

(I do think Amazon is a rare example of a company that both developed software as a core competency but also real world operations)

That said, I'm always happy to see companies diversifying their geographic footprint. Smart, conscientious people exist everywhere, not just in Western tech-hubs. And I hope in the future the choice isn't viewed as "to be one of the best software companies in the world you have to be in Silicon Valley, but if you want low costs, go to India, etc"

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#65

Post by addicted44 »

thekingofh wrote: post #22
xwdv wrote: post #12

Why would you hire an $80k Indian when you could easily hire an $80k American from somewhere with lower costs of living than Silicon Valley.

Because hiring an American requires you to treat them like a human being.

People earning 80k in India, China, and heck even Europe, for that matter, almost certainly have a much higher standard of living than people earning that much in the US.

And you can find far more 80k level developers in individual cities in India than you would in a small mid level city in the US.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#66

Post by ckdarby »

xwdv wrote: post #12

Why would you hire an $80k Indian when you could easily hire an $80k American from somewhere with lower costs of living than Silicon Valley.

That $80k American is at a higher chance of leaving for opportunities domestically.

Who is paying domestically $80k or +$80k/year in India? Probably just FANNG.

I live in Canada and my assumption would be payroll & state taxes would be less in India compared to USA. There is also the advantage of having great leverage over a country when being a big fish in a smaller pool like in India.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#67

Post by ilaksh »

somurzakov wrote: post #33
jaywalk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just move the entire company to India, and pay everyone less?

thats what Zoom does, large part of their engineering is in China

Yeah.. I also wonder about how some of those other Chinese companies do it.. they must somehow be able to find talent in China.. apparently.. I mean, it's amazing..I wonder if they pay them $300k

I also wonder, I know there are a few big software companies in India.. how do they manage to build large operations without hiring $300k per year US engineers from the Bay Area? I wonder if there are actually some good engineers in India. Weird. I heard they were all bad. But I guess with 1.3 billion people they might have a couple of good programmers. Possibly. OR maybe the large Indian software/internet companies probably actually hire the best US engineers and just get by with them. That's probably actually it.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#68

Post by ixvvqktiwl »

jaywalk wrote: post #9
ixvvqktiwl wrote: post #4

I used to think this was a bad thing, but these days I'm not so sure. Assuming you can get the same (or similar) talent in India instead of the US, doesn't it make sense to do your development in a place where your money goes farther? The capitalist in me sees this as a win: more value for shareholders, and a big life improvement for Indians. Can someone explain to me why it's a bad thing? I understand it might be ba…

Why not just move the entire company to India, and pay everyone less?

My guess is that most investors don't want to touch non-US companies.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#69

Post by atonse »

gorpomon wrote: post #39
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

This is well-trodden ground as far as discussion around here goes. The common points pro and con always come up: is the quality the same (some say yes, some say no), is co-location or time-zone location important (same parenthetical), what $ amount is ethical to pay, whom is it more ethical to pay (are you a nationalist or a global citizen, etc), what's sustainable, many more etc's. I've decided that's it's a persona…

Genuine question: I wasn't aware that I added any politics – is there any argument that I made that can be seen as political?

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#70

Post by protonimitate »

gorpomon wrote: post #39
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

This is well-trodden ground as far as discussion around here goes. The common points pro and con always come up: is the quality the same (some say yes, some say no), is co-location or time-zone location important (same parenthetical), what $ amount is ethical to pay, whom is it more ethical to pay (are you a nationalist or a global citizen, etc), what's sustainable, many more etc's. I've decided that's it's a persona…

> You see it all and you'll get it all, so why the fuss?

Because people are afraid that they won't be able to command 350K a year salaries anymore. The fear is that the "good old days" of SV salaries are over is being materialized.

Imo its overdue, but I also am perfectly happy making an average salary in a HCOL area, with aspirations to move to a low or middle COL area.

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