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Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

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Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#41

Post by ukoki »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #18
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

Why should those engineers be paid $150k if they're generating more than $300k of value? For that matter, why should an Indian engineer be paid $80k if they're generating $300k of value minus whatever hidden costs you want to assign (surely not $220k)?

People are paid based on how much a similarly skilled worker is willing to work for, not based on how much value they generate for a company.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#42

Post by fahrradflucht »

Avalaxy wrote: post #3
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

I think the cost of an engineer is way less than 80K in India. Here in the Netherlands a senior SE would be $80K. I see no reason to go to India instead of western Europe then.

At least in Germany, $80k salary would mean costs of nearly $100k for the employer because of additional social security payments required. So it really isn't a fair comparison.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#44

Post by softwaredoug »

atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

There is always one 'business KPI' being measured whether engineers like it or not - your pay. I know it's passe to poo poo KPIs and measuring value delivered to the business. If you're not in a position to justify the investment to stakeholders, relative to other options with lower costs, you're probably going to lose that argument.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#46

Post by ilaksh »

bitL wrote: post #29
ixvvqktiwl wrote: post #4

I used to think this was a bad thing, but these days I'm not so sure. Assuming you can get the same (or similar) talent in India instead of the US, doesn't it make sense to do your development in a place where your money goes farther? The capitalist in me sees this as a win: more value for shareholders, and a big life improvement for Indians. Can someone explain to me why it's a bad thing? I understand it might be ba…

Race to the bottom. No rewards for excellence, why bother studying/working hard when all you get is 80k? That's basically a life-time mortgage if you want to own a house.

In some places houses cost less than $150k..

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#48

Post by clavalle »

bberenberg wrote: post #10
ixvvqktiwl wrote: post #4

I used to think this was a bad thing, but these days I'm not so sure. Assuming you can get the same (or similar) talent in India instead of the US, doesn't it make sense to do your development in a place where your money goes farther? The capitalist in me sees this as a win: more value for shareholders, and a big life improvement for Indians. Can someone explain to me why it's a bad thing? I understand it might be ba…

"Assuming you can get the same (or similar) talent in India instead of the US" I am not aware of anyone who has succeeded at this in practice. Do you know anyone?

I've had mixed results.

Romania has been great.

Pakistan was /terrible/...

India has been a mixed bag. Firms tend to be terrible. Individuals tend to be good to great. The great devs tend to move here as soon as they're able.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#49

Post by toomuchtodo »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #8
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

Paying $80k a year in India would get you top level talent. They’d pay less than that. Uber is preparing for a death spiral as their financial backing runs out and they need to shrink to the profitable markets.

> Uber is preparing for a death spiral as their financial backing runs out and they need to shrink to the profitable markets.

Many of their top markets have ruled their drivers are employees (or requiring similar compensation/benefits), except Brazil. I'm unsure if they can remain anywhere near their current size (versus the headcount of a traditional livery service) based on that regulatory environment, even with McKinsey style transformations to their business (ie offshoring).

> "But one detail in particular caught my eye. About 24 percent of Uber’s bookings—all the money that customers pay through the app and in cash, including driver earnings—occur in just five cities: New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, London, and São Paulo." [1]

London: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/19/uber-lose... ("Uber loses appeal over driver employment rights")

France: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uber-court/top-french-cou... ("Top French court deals blow to Uber by giving driver 'employee' status")

California: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-regulator-uber-lyf... ("Uber, Lyft drivers are employees according to California regulator")

New Jersey: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/nyregion/uber-new-jersey-... ("New Jersey has demanded that Uber pay $649 million for years of unpaid employment taxes for its drivers, arguing that the ride-hailing company has misclassified the workers as independent contractors and not as employees.")

New York: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/nyregion/uber-drivers-pay... ("New York City regulators are moving toward significantly raising wages for drivers for Uber and other ride-hailing apps.")

[1] https://slate.com/business/2019/04/uber-ipo-nyc-london-risks...

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#50

Post by chanakya »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #8
atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

Paying $80k a year in India would get you top level talent. They’d pay less than that. Uber is preparing for a death spiral as their financial backing runs out and they need to shrink to the profitable markets.

The numbers $300K and $80K are roughly accurate. Yes, you can get engineers in India for $5K or even less, but you don't want them working on your product. Senior, architect-level talented engineers may well cost $80K. And yes, if you want to hire the same capability engineer in Silicon Valley, they will likely cost $300K.
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