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California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

reuters.com

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Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#561

Post by Broken_Hippo »

pnako wrote: post #284
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be incredibly careful with the volume of migrants that we are taking in to the West. Issues like FGM, sex-selective abortions, hiring discrimination are becoming established because migrants have come over in such numbers that they have little pressure to assimilate and adopt Western values. Honestly, I don't believe you. This just sounds like the same thing racists and xenophobes have been saying for year…

In France, about 20 years ago there was a lively debate about whether north-African girls, in high school and universities, should be allowed to wear a "foulard islamique" (scarf over the hair). Now we are completely past that, and we have women wearing burkas and niqabs; things covering the entire body. This also increasingly includes indigenous French women. So not only some groups don't assimilate, they actually p…

I don't really understand why a headscarf is controversial at all. I don't understand why burkas and niqabs are controversial either, so long as folks know they have a choice in the matter. Someone else wearing one doesn't really affect you. The bigger issue is that you see it as a problem, instead of just accepting folks.

Seriously: How does someone else wearing a headscarf - or more - actually affect you beyond the hypothetical of what a person could do?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#562

Post by dang »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #540
dang wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. But what are the posts you're referring to? As far as I can tell, most of the discussion in this thread is by Indians, Indian expats, and people of Indian background, sharing their experiences. But I haven't read the entire thread.

How about this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697939 Replace Hindus/Muslims and Casteism/Terrorism and would you allow this if someone claims they are Muslim.

I know there are contentious issues in this thread, with people naturally falling on both sides, and I am too ignorant of Indian society to know what all the lines are. But I don't read that comment the same way that you do. To me it's primarily a report of the commenter's experience as a dalit, and a very interesting report actually. I suppose it includes some phrases that, in a different context, would cross the line and deserve moderation replies, but the context matters a lot. I don't think "anecdotes spilling vitriol" is a fair description.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#563

Post by ralphc »

clothesline wrote: post #197
walt0 wrote: post #99

I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this. Me and my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay raise or promotions unless you have the last names jain, gupta, sharma, verma. I had a guy on my team who was very capable but did not have the right last name, he was being harassed for promotions for 4-5 years. On the other hand the manager class was entirely "ja…

I hope this nonsense can stop and talent can be rewarded regardless of caste. > This was all very hush-hush, I know of it because I overheard them talking about it. Of course it is. In India, there are some ridiculuous rules related to caste discrimination. For example someone from "lower" caste can sue a person for libel and have him thrown in jail with no FIR. Caste based discrimination is wrong. But arrest-before-…

American with a question here. In the U.S. you can legally change your name. What would happen if a Dalit went to court and petitioned to get his named changed to Gupta or Sharma?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#564

Post by dang »

randomguy2379 wrote: post #280
entha_saava wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go to r/india to see that. That sub is peak irrational leftism. And people generalizing Brahmins and other upper castes as oppressors are not exactly right. For many of us who are Brahmin by caste but have a rural, agriculture etc.. background otherwise, we have not witnessed such extreme casteism. Disclaimer: Brahmin by caste / surname but my community is traditionally agriculturist.

Only a brahmin would point out that he is brahmin TWICE in his comment. We know that you are a brahmin and feel 'proud' of your caste. You sir, are the reason why casteism exists in India.

That crossed into personal attack and is not ok.

I appreciate the experiences that you've been sharing in your other comments, but you provoked a flamewar in this case and should not have done that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#565

Post by dang »

entha_saava wrote: post #304
randomguy2379 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a brahmin would point out that he is brahmin TWICE in his comment. We know that you are a brahmin and feel 'proud' of your caste. You sir, are the reason why casteism exists in India.

That's a disclaimer, someone may miss that 'some of us' part while reading and think I am saying that as an outsider. You are the anti-brahmin hypocrite generalizing your experience with some of them to blame them. People like you are why there is still lot of SJW bullshit in India. A person with ½ of my competetive exam scores, and double the income easily gets a seat in NIT because reservation based on caste. The g…

> You are the anti-brahmin hypocrite [...] People like you are why

Please do not cross into personal attack, even when provoked, and do not take the thread further into flamewar even when baited. Doing those things only makes the thread even worse. And actually the bulk of this thread, when I looked at it last night, was doing relatively well considering the difficulty of the topic.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#566

Post by cmonnow »

randomguy2379 wrote: post #308
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #273

I’ve got a “hot button” about castes. I hate ‘em. Comes from growing up overseas (I live in the US), and having servants. These were the people that raised us, and were, for all intents and purpose, “family.” Except they weren’t, and when I found out how they lived, it broke my heart. I was also raised by a British mother, who was an awesome woman, but came from a middle-class Liverpool (“scouse”) family, and spent h…

As someone who was born a lower caste hindu, I don't really mind the british caste system at all. Because the british caste system is fluid. If you are born to servant parents and study hard to become a doctor, you end up at the top of the caste system. Not in Hinduism. Even if you become a doctor, but were born a dalit(lowest caste), you will remain a dalit and so will your future generations. There is no escape fro…

> There is no escape from the inhuman hindu caste system.

The Hindu caste system talks about spiritual evolution of the soul as it goes from body to body in each birth.

You might be a lower-caste in this birth, but you might get upper-caste birth in a next life. And vice-versa. That's how you escape it.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#567

Post by arkades »

RHSeeger wrote: post #542
arkades wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their statement for "third party payment" is industry jargon for "don't ban it," because Americans equate "uninsured service" with "unavailable service." Outside the headline, their strongest position is "don't make it unavailable." And what argument do they make for it? They trawled the data for things like reducing the transmission of HIV - which it does, in third-world country where condom usage is low, antiretrov…

I said > The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks. You said > Not exactly. And then proceeded to write up why you believe they are wrong. I said > I agree there's some room for argument as to whether it should be recommended or not, but and > I'm sorry, but... they do. Literally and unambiguously. You replied, once again, indicating why you believe they are wrong.…

I said that they state it as a headline, and then walk it back in their actual paper. Yes, that's relevant - they literally did it so that pro-circumcision folks could tout the very headline you're touting, and they'd still have room to defend themselves from everyone calling them out for a headline they can't defend.

If I print a headline that says "ALL DOGS ARE RED" followed by a text qualifying the words "all," "dogs", and "red", you certainly can assert until the cows come home that I said "All dogs are red", but that would also be incorrect, given anything but the most superficial reading.

Lastly, to the extent that you're presenting the AAP statement as a direct argument from authority, I'm pointing out those other organizations not to argue "I disagree with the AAP", but to point out that in this instance "an argument from authority is invalid, they're roundly criticized by the other authorities."

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#568

Post by pnako »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #561
pnako wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France, about 20 years ago there was a lively debate about whether north-African girls, in high school and universities, should be allowed to wear a "foulard islamique" (scarf over the hair). Now we are completely past that, and we have women wearing burkas and niqabs; things covering the entire body. This also increasingly includes indigenous French women. So not only some groups don't assimilate, they actually p…

I don't really understand why a headscarf is controversial at all. I don't understand why burkas and niqabs are controversial either, so long as folks know they have a choice in the matter. Someone else wearing one doesn't really affect you. The bigger issue is that you see it as a problem, instead of just accepting folks. Seriously: How does someone else wearing a headscarf - or more - actually affect you beyond the…

The scarf is an issue in the sense that it was a way for militant, political Islam groups to test the waters. Which has led in less than a generation to much more extreme ways to openly show support for radical Islam (including burkas or more commonly niqabs).

It's an issue because a nation, a society must have a common bond, a common culture. It's not a giant supermarket or a hotel.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#569

Post by dredmorbius »

shripadk wrote: post #560
dredmorbius wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Civil forfeiture".

But that is for property. Does not extend to a human being. That is the same everywhere. You are confusing the two things. Even in India authorities have legal rights to confiscate property they feel is being used in criminal activity. That is allowed and doesn't require a warrant. But do you, in the United States, have any law where you can be arrested without there being a charge-sheet or an arrest warrant or prima…

So, I've been responding to several, often unclear and inconsistent, though absolute claims, made by several commentators in this thread, for which any counterexample would be sufficient refutation.

I'm also not defending the Indian law, only making clear it is not as fully exceptional as portrayed by some here.

Answering your specific question as to the US and detention without charge or due process: yes, definitely. Guantanamo Bay is an extraterritorial detention centre for supposed terrorists, held without trial and subject to torture, since the prison opened in January 2002. 779 prisoners are acknowledged to have been held at some point, 40 remain. I don't find a statement of longest detention, but that could be as much as 18 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_detention#United_St...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

Tens of thousands of detainees are held by immigration authorities, with nearly 400,000 having been booked into ICE custody in 2018. Detentions are on the basis of (suspected) immigration status, not criminal disposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention_in_the_U...

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#570

Post by Broken_Hippo »

pnako wrote: post #568
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand why a headscarf is controversial at all. I don't understand why burkas and niqabs are controversial either, so long as folks know they have a choice in the matter. Someone else wearing one doesn't really affect you. The bigger issue is that you see it as a problem, instead of just accepting folks. Seriously: How does someone else wearing a headscarf - or more - actually affect you beyond the…

The scarf is an issue in the sense that it was a way for militant, political Islam groups to test the waters. Which has led in less than a generation to much more extreme ways to openly show support for radical Islam (including burkas or more commonly niqabs). It's an issue because a nation, a society must have a common bond, a common culture. It's not a giant supermarket or a hotel.

lol. Where do you get your information from? A headscarf and the next thing you know, "radical Islam"?? Whatever. This is just xenophobia with a polite package. Many muslims wear a headscarf around the world. Other religions do to: It was, until fairly recently, common in Europe as well for many folks (not sure if it was ever common in the Americas). This isn't showing support for "radical islam" any more than being Christian is supporting radical christianity or being any religion shows support for the most radical versions of it. Most muslims simply follow Islam, and not a radical form of it. Radical is.. rare. In pretty much all things.

And no, it isn't an issue because it is a nation. There are lots of ways to have a common bond or culture. It is an issue because segments of the population have decided to be xenophobic and shun parts of this particular religion. You can have things like belief that everyone is equal as a common bond. Language is a common bond. Education can be (and is!) a common bond. Compassion can be a common bond. But this is the hill you are dying on instead.

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