California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste • Hacker News Board

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#251

Post by entha_saava » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:25 AM UTC

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

To be honest, for some of them it is a matter of 'preserving culture' and I don't think they would accept a 'higher' caste one either. That said, it may be different in other parts of India.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#252

Post by richrichardsson » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:26 AM UTC

ReticentVole wrote: post #235

If Indians are so willing to discriminate against eachother on the basis of their own caste, we should be entirely unsurprised when Indians managers and companies discriminate against non-Indians (ie. Americans and other Europeans) in their own countries - of which there are multiple recorded instances. We need to be incredibly careful with the volume of migrants that we are taking in to the West. Issues like FGM, se…

Whilst FGM is absolutely abhorrent, I really can't stand how MGM (or circumcision without any medical need for it) is happily accepted in "Western values".

I can accept that circumcision is a medical need in some cases (my brother required it, something he elected to have done in his late teens), but I can't accept the double standard of "it's fine to chop parts off a baby boy without his consent because it's a part of our culture, but it's unacceptable that their culture allows them to chop parts off a baby girl".

So the point is, why are "Western values" automatically better than other values? I think you're being hyperbolic that "migrants have come over in such numbers that they have little pressure to assimilate", that is plainly nonsense.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#253

Post by naveens » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

distant_hat wrote: post #242

naveens wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of Bangalore did this happen? Landlords usually use veg-only as a dogwhistle to select brahmins. Also they are wary to let out to other religions, muslims especially.

They were vegetarian TamBrahms, they just needed the additional details to be totally sure. This was in J P Nagar/Jayanagar area.

Not surprised at all because Old South Bangalore (Basavanagudi, Jayanagar, JP Nagar) is Brahmin Central.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#254

Post by castevictim » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #201

castevictim wrote: post #78

Readers who are not from Indian subcontinent may find this difficult to understand or beleive, let me throw some context. Indian caste system is probably the longest running abuse,racism, human rights violation in the human history. Even,now in some parts of the country people from lowest caste are made to carry human waste on their head[0]. After independence,thanks to rights offered by constitution & reservation by…

> Ask the lower caste team members of any large IT company in India e.g. TCS, Infosys led by a Brahmin manager(who is not an atheist); you'll hear about discrimination they face. Is the religious component that large? I'd assume that it's simple ingroup/outgroup, like most discrimination. You don't need to believe that your group is special by divine ruling, you just need to believe that you'll get a better personal…

Good question, this needs dwelling deep into the ideology of caste system.

1. Like many other religion, basis of caste system in Hinduism is that lower caste people came from supposedly less important organ & upper caste people came from more important organs.

2. People from upper caste perform cushy jobs, have access to education and all amenities. People from lower caste literally have to carry shit of upper caste people on their head. Obviously caste is hereditory!

Now any tell that to anyone who says 'Hinduism is not a religion', they would say 'Caste system was not hereditory, but way of job management'; but they will have no answer or tell a lame excuse when you ask them "Why caste attrocity exists till date, would you help uprooting caste system and make it illegal? or better will you let your son/daughter marry a lower caste person?"

And there are people who staunchly believe in the caste system as the core of their belief system, so much so that honor killings happen even in western countries by people of Indian/Subcontinent origin; Yes honor killings happen in India almost every other day.

So yeah, casteism cannot be taken apart from religion/ideology.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#255

Post by devdas » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #121

paloaltokid wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do find it fascinating how a converted Dalit is basically freed from the social burdens of their class. I would not have expected that, as most religious groups heap scorn or actual punishments on those who convert to another religion. Based on what I've read so far in people's responses to my question it makes a kind of sense. If you convert to a different religion, historically speaking, you are now "out of com…

Right, but often groups are extremely hostile to apostates because apostasy represents an existential threat towards the religion itself. This is why many religions require a formal shunning of apostates, if not explicit punishment. Talleyrand famously had a meal of ice wine and cold meat after being excommunicated in 1791 since good Christians were supposed to deny him “fire and water”; a cute anecdote at the time,…

Hinduism has no concept of apostasy. You are free to believe in as many gods as you wish (Atheism is a legitimate school in Hinduism), so changing which god your claim to believe in isn't a big deal.

The perceived threat is from the claim that all other gods are false, which is one of the major factors in the anti Muslim/anti Christian sentiments playing out currently in India.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#256

Post by ves » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

linlucas wrote: post #216

randomguy2379 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone who was born a hindu dalit and I am so ashamed of sharing that identity of mine that I am posting anonymously. Hindus believe that humans are like dogs and they have a breed. So a person who is born in a higher caste is of a better breed than a person born in a lower caste. Numerous genetic studies have found no significant difference amongst Indian castes. The moment an upper caste person realizes that…

I’m sorry that you had to go through this. I’m east Asian myself, and I often cant tell the ethnicity of other east Asians (Korean, Chinese...). So how does Indians determine the caste of other people? Is it by the lightness of their skin?

last names encode a lot of information. Skin color / features etc can also be informative.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#257

Post by ponker » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

bravura wrote: post #237

ponker wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can change your last name to Rockefeller, and some get away with it [1], but usually you'd be exposed because not only would you not have the right clothes, manners, alma maters, accent, etc... but most of all, you wouldn't know the right people. "Oh you're a Rockefeller, eh? So I'll see you at the Wickliffe's garden party in Martha's Vineyard this June?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter

Although I agree with your general sentiment, it seems that Christian Gerhartsreiter got quite far (e.g. member of the Algonquin club), and wasn't discovered because of poor manners or a declasse accent or the wrong clothes, but for parental child abduction.

Yep. He even married a McKinsey partner back when that was an admirable career.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#258

Post by devdas » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

linlucas wrote: post #216

randomguy2379 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone who was born a hindu dalit and I am so ashamed of sharing that identity of mine that I am posting anonymously. Hindus believe that humans are like dogs and they have a breed. So a person who is born in a higher caste is of a better breed than a person born in a lower caste. Numerous genetic studies have found no significant difference amongst Indian castes. The moment an upper caste person realizes that…

I’m sorry that you had to go through this. I’m east Asian myself, and I often cant tell the ethnicity of other east Asians (Korean, Chinese...). So how does Indians determine the caste of other people? Is it by the lightness of their skin?

Usually name, accent, dialect, food habits. It's not visible upfront, but a few minutes of conversation will get that information.

There is a skin colour bias, but that isn't about caste (darker skin is a sign that you have to work in the sun, which signals poverty and being of a lower economic class).

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#259

Post by naveens » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:34 AM UTC

eklavya wrote: post #219

I am ashamed that a few bad people give a bad name to us all. It reinforces the cast divide and enables a section to trumpet about the bad Indian culture or bad Hindu. It's despicable and I fail to understand how educated and technical people can still practice something so inhuman. To the people saying nothing has changed in India, no, so so much has changed, there are many more intercaste marriages and anecdotal bu…

How many of the 50% of your anecdotal data is brahmins/upper-castes marrying dalits?

Have your heard of honour killings where a dalit family killing the upper caste bride or groom?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#260

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 9:34 AM UTC

ReticentVole wrote: post #235

If Indians are so willing to discriminate against eachother on the basis of their own caste, we should be entirely unsurprised when Indians managers and companies discriminate against non-Indians (ie. Americans and other Europeans) in their own countries - of which there are multiple recorded instances. We need to be incredibly careful with the volume of migrants that we are taking in to the West. Issues like FGM, se…

> such numbers that they have little pressure to assimilate and adopt Western values.

you mean like the uppety expat communities of Anglo-Saxon background who can't even bother learning German or French in Berlin or Nice even after 5 years in the country, the ones who go shopping every Saturday in their English groceries stores in Lyon and Munich and who will never invite the locals to their gatherings. Yes I've seen them in Singapore, HongKong and even Germany & France these British expat clubs. Think in India they're called British Raj unto this day for a reason.

I've been living as a foreigner all my life and the higher the contrast between rich/poor between the foreigner/host the less of "integration" you see. Telling people to "integrate" or claiming certain types of "foreigners don't integrate" is extremely xenophobic. Anyone speaking of "integration" needs to be sent to the country these people come from and forced to live on the local salary and do as the locals do in that country, ... if the speaker hasn't tried this, you can assume that what comes out of their mouth is racist garbage.