People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study • Hacker News Board

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#31

Post by guicho271828 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #15

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

I neither hear nor see things I read. Such that I can remember things, but I couldn't tell you how I remember them. Is akin to knowing your way home. I don't see the turns ahead of time, but I recognize them when I do. And I can remember the decisions ahead of time. I think remembering decisions is ultimately my best way to describe it. Remembering making a choice. Something that is not sensory.

I am curious, what would you do when you lost your map in a forest/mountain while hiking, but assuming you "remember" the map that you checked the day before?

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#32

Post by falsaberN1 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

I honestly don't know if it can be tested unless it's determined to happen in some area of the brain, that can be monitored externally for increased activity.

When I paint myself I usually compose a scene in my mind. When drawing characters, I mostly follow whatever my mental image is, then as I trace the lines I can visualize how they connect. When drawing characters that aren't mine I make a point of not using a reference picture. Basically I can "see" the whole result as soon as I have the eyes drawn, then I just draw single lines until it's "traced", undoing if it doesn't fit the shape I need. Only problem is that at times I don't close lines so using a fill tool is always a pain. When painting proper I just make a quick color base and I add the rest until it fits whatever is in my head, then I add minor detailing to complete the piece in a more mechanical manner like "this gravel can use more texturing" or "add some grating in this robot's armor for cooling". My speed when drawing characters is very high, I at times like to speed-doodle stuff for friends and each piece takes about 5 minutes once I decide on an angle/pose, so the process doesn't seem to interfere with agility.

I can also doodle stuff while not conjuring any mental image (such as idle doodling on a notebook or such), however, it just has weird proportions or so. My point being that it's not something necessary at all as you can still paint/draw/write without doing it. Doesn't seem to be a necessity or provide any significant advantage over plain "logic" (as logic as creative stuff can be, but stuff like light usually works in rigid ways)

When doing things like coding I plan the structure in advance, but it doesn't resemble the process for visual arts at all. There's no mental image there, just something like "okay now loop here and call this function".

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#33

Post by xthestreams » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

I can visualize to a limited extent, i.e. I can see anything I want but images are always very "unstable". I'm much better with music: I can listen to music in my head very clearly, even though there is a strong focus on the lead melody (e.g. voice, guitar). But I can also create music from scratch and let it unfold seamlessly, with any kind of instruments or vocals I want.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#34

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #29

3f34f34f wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one on earth can 'visualise' an image in their head as if they were seeing it in real life. This entire fiasco is just people on different spectrums of mental picturing that are freaking out because they are misinterpreting what aphantasia is. I assure you you are most likely normal, and it's common to not recite a sentence word for word or picture an object perfectly. Others can do it very well. Just like you can…

Plenty of people can visualize an image in their head as if they are seeing it in real life. As one of those people, trust me that if your brain is set up to work that way, it's pretty difficult to imagine any other way of picturing the world. Likewise there are plenty of people who honestly can't picture things in their mind at all. The fact that you are towards the middle of the spectrum does not mean the extremes…

[deleted]

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#35

Post by chippy » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

Let's say you are shopping for a new sofa. Often people will imagine their room and how imagine how the new sofa would look in the room. Usually people will visualise that imagination process.

Now re-read the above and consider that I've asked you to imagine yourself imagining something!

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#36

Post by throw1234651234 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

greenonions wrote: post #7

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

Yes, and there are no real limits to this. I can picture a Rubik's cube dominating the Manhattan skyline. I can also picture abstract images with no connection to the real world, that have emotions associated with them. I believe my wife cannot make images, and the differences between us that result are pretty wild. I'm dramatically better with directions and maps because she can't make a mental model of the map and…

Can you draw what you visualize? Can you recall a face exactly and draw it? As an amateur artist, I don't think there is as much "mechanical skill" in art, as there is clearly imagining what you are trying to draw. Any time anyone claims to be able to visualize, I ask them this question.

To be clear, I am not "challenging" you in any sense, but it's a good reality check.

Anyway - I am the same with maps, I can easily see the route in my head, but that has to do with being aware of where north is and a vague notion of where I am.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#37

Post by taeric » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

guicho271828 wrote: post #31

taeric wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I neither hear nor see things I read. Such that I can remember things, but I couldn't tell you how I remember them. Is akin to knowing your way home. I don't see the turns ahead of time, but I recognize them when I do. And I can remember the decisions ahead of time. I think remembering decisions is ultimately my best way to describe it. Remembering making a choice. Something that is not sensory.

I am curious, what would you do when you lost your map in a forest/mountain while hiking, but assuming you "remember" the map that you checked the day before?

I do not think in terms of maps at all. I do think in terms of choosing to go left or right.

You have probably heard directions like, go straight until you get to the big tree, take the left path towards the creek...

Basically, I remember what choices to make at different spots. I used to be a pizza delivery driver. I could work out where houses were based on the street and number. But it was always an iterative process. I will remember what sequence of things should happen at points. And going to new places is always harder, because maps don't help me much.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#38

Post by 3f34f34f » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #27

3f34f34f wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people and journalists who speak about aphantasia are exaggerating or misleading others. If you actually are able to imagine an picture with your eyes open and have it cover the real world, that's called hallucinating. Some people can visualise things stronger than others, some cannot at all, but let's not pretend like actual visualisation (hallucinating) is the norm or that more than a few people on ear…

I think you're the one exaggerating here... I don't see anyone claiming that they are "able to imagine an picture with [their] eyes open and have it cover the real world". You specified "eyes open". Are you able to visualize things with your eyes closed?

I can't close my eyes and imprint a picture over my closed eyelids as if i was watching a movie. If you could imprint an image over your closed eyes, logic dictates you would be able to do the same in a dark room since light is the only difference between open and closed eyes. But I don't think people are having vivid and realistic hallucinations in the dark.

Regardless, the way journalists talk about aphantasia, or more specifically, the opposite of aphantasia, has led a lot of people to believe this is possible (at least, I believed it based on what people have said they can do).

Maybe I am just exaggerating then, but i think this whole topic has got a lot of people worried that they are not normal. I don't think it's good for the mental health of hypochondriacs.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#39

Post by auto » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

To expound a bit on what others are saying, I definitely have this visualization ability, and it isn't limited to sight, I have the same thing for all my senses. The way I've described it to other people is that I can emulate any sensation internally, it's just that it's a muted or foggy version of it. If it was 100% accurate, I think that would start to cause issues with your brain's ability to distinguish with what's real and what's "in your head".

The example I always give people is that when deciding what to eat and looking at things in the cabinet, or the fridge, or deciding where to pickup food, I just mentally "taste" each thing, and it really does feel like I have the sensation of eating that thing, and I decide based on which one tastes the best in that moment.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#40

Post by throw1234651234 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

di4na wrote: post #18

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

I can draw you a dog, but if you ask me to picture a ball on a table, i do not picture anything specific. It is just the abstract idea of a ball on the table. It does not have colour, substance, space, nothing.

For me - I can draw as much as I can visualize. That is, I know that a face is bisected sphere with some extra lines on the bottom for the chin. I can't hold this image clearly, but I can hold it for a fraction of a second - enough to know what to put on paper. I think drawing and visualization are pretty closely tied.