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People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

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Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#11

Post by ancient_art »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

I can only see a very limited amount of stuff in my head. My best visualizations are routes in 2D from above. Anything beyond that is really hard to do.

Funny thing is, when I dream I can see anything.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#12

Post by 3f34f34f »

missingrib wrote: post #3

I'm worried I have this but I'm not completely sure I do. My dreams are not very vivid at all and usually I just "know" that things are happening in them instead of vividly seeing what's going on. However I can hear music very clearly in my head. If asked to visualize, say, an apple in my head I really don't see it very vividly at all. It's depressing if I'm being honest.

No one on earth can 'visualise' an image in their head as if they were seeing it in real life. This entire fiasco is just people on different spectrums of mental picturing that are freaking out because they are misinterpreting what aphantasia is. I assure you you are most likely normal, and it's common to not recite a sentence word for word or picture an object perfectly. Others can do it very well. Just like you can visualise music very well, whereas I cannot. It's a (tight) spectrum.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#13

Post by silveroriole »

greenonions wrote: post #7
throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

Yes, and there are no real limits to this. I can picture a Rubik's cube dominating the Manhattan skyline. I can also picture abstract images with no connection to the real world, that have emotions associated with them. I believe my wife cannot make images, and the differences between us that result are pretty wild. I'm dramatically better with directions and maps because she can't make a mental model of the map and…

Oh, the map thing is interesting. I can visualise pretty well but I can’t move around smoothly in my visualisations. I can only warp around like in VR games. Most of what I visualise is more like a 2d film/photo than a full 3D scene. Like your wife, I can’t figure out maps or 3D spaces (I spend a lot of time in 3d games wandering around lost) - despite me being able to form images. Maybe some of us only have 1d/2d imaginary worlds in our heads!

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#14

Post by theelous3 »

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

Anecdotal, but a friend of mine has essentially no inner eye and has roughly one memorable dream per year, if even.

He cannot picture anything internally bar the most basic geometry, and that requires active focus.

I know him to have a strong memory across the board, and no particular issues with reading (dyslexia, however he is a very strong reader. Certainly a lot stronger than average).

So I wouldn't say there's necessarily anything that prohibits a person with a weak minds eye from having good memory. Not arguing against the point he may be an outlier or that these two features don't often go hand in hand, just pointing out it's not so hard and fast.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#15

Post by taeric »

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

I neither hear nor see things I read. Such that I can remember things, but I couldn't tell you how I remember them.

Is akin to knowing your way home. I don't see the turns ahead of time, but I recognize them when I do. And I can remember the decisions ahead of time.

I think remembering decisions is ultimately my best way to describe it. Remembering making a choice. Something that is not sensory.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#16

Post by JshWright »

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

I do not see/hear/smell/taste anything with my "mind".

Speaking from my own personal experience, my reading comprehension doesn't seem to suffer at all, and the speed at which I read seems to be much faster than average (for instance, if my wife and I are reading the same page of text, I'm done long before she is).

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#17

Post by arkades »

Without even digging into the paper, let's be clear. They didn't find "they have memory trouble." They found, "they have trouble recalling sensations."

> "Our data also showed that individuals with aphantasia not only report being unable to visualise, but also report comparatively reduced imagery, on average, in all other sensory modalities, including auditory, tactile, kinesthetic, taste, olfactory and emotion," the team wrote in their paper.

I, for instance, am not aphantasic, but I fall quite close to that end of the spectrum. But I don't use mental imagery to store memory. When I am attempting to encode memories, I do so in the form of a narrative - narratives stick very effectively for me, and I have a pretty good memory (no one without a good memory survives medical school.) It's true, I can't just "remember" the image of relevant anatomy, but I'm fine with other mental models for encoding and retrieving information.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#18

Post by di4na »

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

I can draw you a dog, but if you ask me to picture a ball on a table, i do not picture anything specific. It is just the abstract idea of a ball on the table. It does not have colour, substance, space, nothing.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#19

Post by JshWright »

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

There's a difference between "imagining" and "doing" (for me, anyway).

I can't picture a dog. I can (very, very crudely) draw a dog. Just like I don't "hear" words or songs in my head, but I can sing a song. I can't visualize someone's face, but I don't have any trouble recognizing them if I see them.

I know the "facts" that describe a generic dog, and I have a spatial awareness of how those parts relate to each other.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#20

Post by 3f34f34f »

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

I think most people and journalists who speak about aphantasia are exaggerating or misleading others. If you actually are able to imagine an picture with your eyes open and have it cover the real world, that's called hallucinating. Some people can visualise things stronger than others, some cannot at all, but let's not pretend like actual visualisation (hallucinating) is the norm or that more than a few people on earth can do it.
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