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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#151

Post by baybal2 »

the_dune_13 wrote: post #147
baybal2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian. For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian. Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its…

"Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation" What's the Russian's big chunk? "having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?" Didn't Grand Duchy of Muscovy predecessors come to existence thanks to alliance with Golden Horde?

Yes, they had an alliance in a manner of vassalage in exchange for khan's troops.

It was basically the khan saying them "I will back you if you submit a bigger chunk of Russian land to me"

It was like that with Mongols, and many other foreign invaders before, and after them. Both by Muscovy, and by duchies apposing it.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#152

Post by baybal2 »

ric2b wrote: post #148
baybal2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a lo…

> Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. > I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves. I could say the same about the US.

This is the world we live in today

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#153

Post by koheripbal »

ralph84 wrote: post #9

I thought China would wait to take Taiwan first, so they could limit resistance in Taiwan by saying "we'll let you have your own system like we did in Hong Kong." Now that China has reneged on Hong Kong, Taiwan won't believe them.

At the moment, there is no reasonably practical strategy for "taking" Taiwan.

Hong Kong on the other hand - they probably thought they could get away with it under Trump, but maybe not under Biden, so best to do it now.

Short term diplomatic "outrage" - long term gain.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#154

Post by koheripbal »

almost_usual wrote: post #10

It’s 2020 and humanity is really scared of democracy.

There are many forces out there that are actively trying to diminish the global public's respect for democracy.

It involves slowly eroding people's respect for the core principles we always associated with democracy...

The First Amendment? We don't need that since Hate speech shouldn't be protected - and there's the Paradox of Tolerance!

Second Amendment? We don't need that - no population could ever hope to topple the military anyway!

Judicial process? Who needs a court, when I can organize a mob to get stuff done? Besides, the courts are hopelessly corrupt rapists!

Executive branch? The police are racist belligerents who should be defunded and removed, and the Military has a long history of war crimes!

Legislative Branch? Oh, that decrepit thing? Votes aren't proportionate so the small states have all the power - controlled by racists. We need a revolution!

US History? It's all based on genocide and slavery. That's all we should teach.

Statues / monuments? We need to tear it all down. They were all racist slave owners.

When you destroy everything people believe in - it's a lot easier to get them to embrace something more extremist.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#155

Post by spacehunt »

mnm1 wrote: post #50
arcticbull wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can also speak to some of the negativity as you've asked for folks to chime in. The foreign banner waving you're seeing is a response to the perceived and actual loss of freedoms and autonomy guaranteed under Once Country, Two Systems for a minimum of the next 20 years. Beijing is failing to honor the commitments it made to the Hong Kong people, to the UK and to the international community in 1997. The Hong Kong pe…

They're asking for war, for the UK or US to engage China. That is too much to ask. Neither the UK or US has the will or the ability to wage such a war. China wants Hong Kong to be part of it and it will get it just like Russia got Crimea. There are no repercussions to China passing laws and doing as they see fit. They could full out abolish the entire agreement and bring HK under Chinese rule like the mainland if the…

> They're asking for war

This is a gross misinterpretation. What the protestors actually wanted was:

- For the UK to grant BN(O) holders citizenship to show that they are no longer bound by the Sino-UK Joint Declaration.

- For the US to revoke Hong Kong's special status (the Hong Kong Policy Act).

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#156

Post by _m8pt »

baybal2 wrote: post #145
andor wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a better explanation?

> Can you give a better explanation? 1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...) 2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums…

As a Chinese person from north of Shanghai, what in the world do you mean by “indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians”????

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#157

Post by koonsolo »

simonh wrote: post #131
koonsolo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base…

> The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

You do know about the industrial espionage by Echelon, right? On that front that pretty much puts US in the same bucket as China.

Only 1 example of many:

"In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech.[71] As German intelligence services are forbidden from engaging in industrial or economic espionage, German companies are frequently complaining that this leaves them defenceless against industrial espionage from the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#158

Post by PakG1 »

baybal2 wrote: post #145
andor wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a better explanation?

> Can you give a better explanation? 1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...) 2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums…

> To most Chinese citizens, a travel to HK, or Taiwan is a giant cultural shock. It is because them suddenly realising themselves being so much less Chinese than they though they were.

Given that I know a lot of both Hong Kong people and mainland Chinese people, I am really not sure from where you're getting this idea.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#159

Post by baybal2 »

_m8pt wrote: post #156
baybal2 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you give a better explanation? 1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...) 2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums…

As a Chinese person from north of Shanghai, what in the world do you mean by “indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians”????

Similar in what their attitudes are to so many things in life. Thoughts on having a family, marriage, treatment of women, ideas on social status, work, career, material wellbeing, and down to things like hobbies, and free time spending. And their tourists... especially northeastern ones...

Everything within cultural gravity of Beijing, and Northeast has been molded very early in history of PRC, and was pretty much an attempt to copy USSR 1-to-1 before Mao cut ties.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#160

Post by yoav »

almost_usual wrote: post #59
yoav wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an oppressive surveillance state with regular police murdering minorities, rampant white supremacy, and when not in the middle of catastrophically mishandling a pandemic, has a mass shooting every day of the year. To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China

Also a country where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities. Will outright challenge authority in the street and march until negotiations are made during a pandemic. This does not happen in China or Russia.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries.

I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere.

What is it about the anthem or flag that makes you see it differently?

Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same.

What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.

At least China and Russia consider healthcare a human right like any developed country. The US health care system is depraved.

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