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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#121

Post by fuoqi »

core-questions wrote: post #74
fuoqi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic that the convoluted Hong Kong "democracy" system was directly created by British colonial administration. And this system is largely responsible for limiting ability of Hong Kong citizens to control political power in their city and thus resist mainland power grabs.

> And this system is largely responsible for limiting ability of Hong Kong citizens to control political power in their city Relative to what? Relative to what they had in place before? Or relative to some system you've dreamed up?

Relative to universal suffrage with elected representatives (be it party or individual-based). Read about the current system and why the law, which has caused the previous protests, got accepted, while being vastly unpopular among citizens.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#122

Post by kmlx »

arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

> While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring down its own irrelevance while nursing the self-inflicted gaping wound of Brexit. I tip my hat to Beijing, they sure did know when to strike.

> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do.

Just so that we're all on the same page:

https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...

> DENG Xiaoping threatened China could seize Hong Kong in a day, former British prime minister Lady Thatcher has revealed. The threat by the Chinese patriarch was contained in his famous warning that Beijing might take back the territory before 1997 at their September 1982 meeting in the Great Hall of the People, Lady Thatcher says in her memoirs, The Downing Street Years, to be published tomorrow. The threat is being used to try to block Governor Chris Patten's moves towards greater democracy in Hong Kong. ''He said that the Chinese could walk in and take Hong Kong back later today if they wanted to,'' says Lady Thatcher. ''I retorted that they could indeed do so; I could not stop them. But this would bring about Hong Kong's collapse. The world would then see what followed a change from British to Chinese rule.''

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#123

Post by tanilama »

baybal2 wrote: post #104
tanilama wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

I think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian. For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian. Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its…

> China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation

Not true. Most of Chinese history is under a unified regime. The years between 1850-1950 is an outlier in Chinese history.

I don't see China's actions here as insecure. HK never really has a chance to be separate from China, that is just its geopolitical destiny. It is more like Xi or CCP's assertion than vulnerability that leads to this legislation. It is the classical Asian parenting techniques, just manifest at a much larger scale.

BTW: I do read Chinese history books, and in Chinese. :)

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#124

Post by baybal2 »

fiblye wrote: post #114
baybal2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a lo…

I don't know enough about Russia to speak about it, but China's goals are pretty clear. They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively, working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, and spreading Chinese culture around the world through economic and social means. Another big one is trying to earn China respect as a nation and undoing the reputation of being poor, dirty, and bein…

> They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively

Haha

> working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity,

Haha

Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#125

Post by fiblye »

baybal2 wrote: post #124
fiblye wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about Russia to speak about it, but China's goals are pretty clear. They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively, working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, and spreading Chinese culture around the world through economic and social means. Another big one is trying to earn China respect as a nation and undoing the reputation of being poor, dirty, and bein…

> They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively Haha > working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, Haha Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.

Ask any Chinese person whether the quality of life is better now than 5 years ago, and they'll say yes. Ask them if it's better than 10 years ago and they'll say of course. Ask a grandma if it's better than 50 years ago, and she'll think you're insane for even doubting that it's better. People have trains, food, houses, and smartphones as a baseline with many taking international trips. A couple decades ago, China was incredibly poor. Their modern lifestyle was unimaginable, which is why the CCP has no trouble maintaining stability.

And China is chipping away at its various cultures and pushing for one Mandarin-speaking Han identity and achieving that goal quite quickly.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#126

Post by baybal2 »

hyperman1 wrote: post #70
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

When I see Americans talking about confucianism, I want to laught.

You got it all wrong.

What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#127

Post by Lio »

twelve40 wrote: post #120
Lio wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poles are well thought of here. The meme of the hard working Polish builder is well known. I think one Pro-brexit faction created disinformation around Romanian immigrants. The other main brexit faction created a meme around “taking back control” from bureaucrats. Neither is based on reality.

So ok, honestly trying to understand this. You are saying a massive country-wide vote was decided based on a couple of bizarre myths ("Romanians and bureaucrats") propagated for some reason by some vaguely motivated groups, and majority (slim, but nonetheless) of the country made a decision on some ridiculous myths that have no basis in reality. What was the motivation for these lie-spreading groups to propagate thos…

The two groups are were Vote Leave and Leave EU.

I don't want to derails a discussion about China effectively ending One Country Two Systems further but you can easily search for a description of their tactics if you want.

You can also search for news on when the UK government report in to Russian interference in the vote will be released but I wouldn't hold your breath...

Now back to what China is doing to the people of Hong Kong and why our companies are still outsourcing manufacturing to China without restriction.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#129

Post by magicsmoke »

morceauxdebois wrote: post #118
magicsmoke wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bedrock of western ideals that the US was born from contains a lot of influences from Christianity, especially the part where the duty of a good Christian is to spread the faith and convert heathens around the world to the one true faith in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. Although religiosity as a whole is going down in the western world, this savior complex still persists and echos of it can b…

The US was also founded on a continental wide genocide that even the Nazis couldn't accomplish.

You're seeing the unintended consequences of America's shoddy foundation of slavery, genocide, and short-sighted decision making in all the protests in these past decades as historically abused minority groups rise up to demand their fair share of wealth and power.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#130

Post by Normal_gaussian »

klipt wrote: post #17
arcticbull wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, Brexit was largely driven by discontent around Polish migration. There's over a million Polish citizens in the UK. This is a pretty good read [1]. [1] https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understand...

Somehow, the fact that Britain seceded from the EU over one million foreigners, makes me skeptical that they'll offer citizenship to three million foreigners.

Framed as a move to spit in the eye of someone else (in this case China) it would be likely to gain overwhelming support.
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