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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#91

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

PakG1 wrote: post #4
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with…

> a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment

I don't know if you can make massive generalizations about people who voted to leave Europe. Because people voted for all sorts of different reasons. And it wasn't just racists who voted to leave Europe. Cunts did as well didn't they.[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#92

Post by thaumasiotes »

av_engr wrote: post #60
xref wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you want America to do about it? Hong Kong is Chinese soil. Let’s flip it, how well would America receive pressure from China because we won’t allow Washington DC equal representation by becoming a state? We’d be pretty irate and tell the CCP to pound sand it’s not their business.

Exactly what the US just did now? (Removal of special economic and political status) HK receive "Special" treatment in many ways for being NOT really China. They are economically treated different from China and in someway exempt from certain export control restriction. Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one…

> Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one of the basis on the handover, and China is breaking it right now.

It is a one-and-done deal unless you believe that Britain is willing to wage war on China over it.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#93

Post by mrtksn »

PakG1 wrote: post #4
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with…

I did not live outside of London but I knew quite a few Brexiteers and my impression is that it wasn't about hating on races or foreigners as much as about national pride on being superior and different to Europeans.

No non-skilled Eastern Europeans were coming, they all came for a job that their services were required and these jobs ranged from picking fruits to working in high-tech industries. Of course there were some people who would exploit the social security system but these were insignificant. With Brexit, the government is now the first step in the HR department and reducing meritocracy by introducing non-skill criteria in the hiring process.

Brits pride themselves for being international and having a grasp on foreign cultures and I think rightfully so. Continentals would always think in their own terms and dismiss the stuff that they don't understand as "bakcwards civilisations stuff" but the Brits would actually put an effort to understand foreign cultures and understand why someone does something. I think this also plays role in the relations with countries like Turkey, where the UK understand the country much better than their much more closer European neighbours.

That's why I think having 3 million HK'ers in UK would not be that hard. Some may even argue that HK'ers could fit even easier than many continental Europeans due to the history and cultural influence of the UK in HK.

I bet many Brexiteers would welcome HK'ers as "Our boys from Asia". There is a sense of brotherhood between UK, Australia, New Zealand and the USA and suspect that the HK can fit in just fine.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#94

Post by jhanschoo »

ackbar03 wrote: post #64
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US Honestly not trying to be snarky or anything but purely observationally, I find it interesting how people automatically default to thinking America should have done something about something going on in a completely different country of which they do not really understand the history and culture. And if you've been following global developments o…

> the history and culture.

That's because the status quo is that the US Pacific Fleet has a presence in the region that is welcome by several EA and SEA polities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet

International relations in East Asia and SEA hinge greatly on the ability of the US to respond and deter Chinese aggression against its neighbors, and persuade that a cooperative approach is more productive.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#95

Post by luckylion »

PakG1 wrote: post #4
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with…

HK is pretty advanced, so 3mm HK citizens is different from 3mm from rural Pakistan. I don't see why the British wouldn't see that difference and be okay with immigration that improves the country.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#96

Post by thaumasiotes »

av_engr wrote: post #63
fuoqi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about everyone becomes rich, smart and healthy?

If they are working for it, then yea? Sounds like HKers are working hard for it and on a legal basis it's their right to make their own law within Basic Law , so what's your point here?

I somehow suspect that the Basic Law does not actually give Hong Kong the right to become autonomous. They have the right to make some laws.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#97

Post by freeone3000 »

obiye wrote: post #77
yoav wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an oppressive surveillance state with regular police murdering minorities, rampant white supremacy, and when not in the middle of catastrophically mishandling a pandemic, has a mass shooting every day of the year. To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China

Right. That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life. Get a grip. The world is not black and white.

Here's immigration stats for Russia: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/immigration....

Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#98

Post by arcticbull »

ackbar03 wrote: post #64
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US Honestly not trying to be snarky or anything but purely observationally, I find it interesting how people automatically default to thinking America should have done something about something going on in a completely different country of which they do not really understand the history and culture. And if you've been following global developments o…

> And if you've been following global developments on any scale, you would have realized the time to learn mandarin was a long time ago

You are presuming a lot about me, I was being glib.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#99

Post by politicdone »

arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

or perhaps it's the chance for Hong Kong to renew itself?

It couldn't compete economically with growth in the rest of the greater Bay area and the rest of China it's certainly need some new purpose and direction. maybe the national security law can help Hong Kong regain a sense of being an extremely safe and stable place. a shining light for the rule of law perhaps.

certainly that would be a welcome contrast to the images of dissenting voices being set on fire and violently assaulted by the self-appointed protectors of free speech and democracy on Hong Kong streets. you can support the heroic actions of those young misguided hongkongers if you'd like... and see it in simplistic terms as a struggle between in the red corner the evil China and in the blue corner the wonders of democracy.... or you can grasp the larger picture. increasing stability in Hong Kong is a good thing, while the commentary around the world is part of the noise. The divisive noise required to keep democracies functioning smoothly.

anyway the security law it's certainly no death knell, although I'd say that being burned to death for having an opinion that diverges from the mob, was definitely a threatening blow to freedom and the rule of law in Hong Kong.

so not a death knell but the security law is an exact implementation of the agreement that Britain and China created together. every step the China is taking its right there in the basic law as created by China and Britain in 1997.

I think you can understand this situation because countries like Britain and America they have to say they disapprove, to conform to their populations expectations, but in reality every country's working towards the same goal. it's just that to admit this would cause the useful fantasy in each particular place to collapse. for now the best way to get to a better future globally is for different countries to have their own stories.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#100

Post by _-___________-_ »

obiye wrote: post #52
boomboomsubban wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership - actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world What US leader in the past fifty years has been interested in those ideals? Certainly not Obama, with how he handled events in Yemen, Libya, and Syria, not to mention the assassination program. And his predecessors weren't any bett…

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing.

This is the same kind of destructive and pointlessly cynical statement that you're arguing against.

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