Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#391

Post by justnotworthit » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 9:35 PM UTC

enumjorge wrote: post #327

corpMaverick wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring a great point that I think needs to be discussed further. Every year I spend more time banging my head and I think it is having serious effect on my mental health. I enjoy programming and I don't really spend a lot of time debugging. My code usually runs fine, or I am able to easily find out what is wrong. It is the whole combined complexity of all the tools that we use. Git, Java, maven, gradle, jenkins, O…

To your point, there was an Ask HN thread yesterday where someone was asking for a simpler alternative to git. They kept messing up their repository when using git and they were ready to give up. The responses were basically a) “git is the de facto standard. You can try mercurial but you’ll be missing out on a lot”, which is sadly true or b) “it’s not that bad, just really study the underlying data structures and git…

I never resist the opportunity to quote:

Computer people generally design terrible computer interfaces because they are not only willing to cope with something bad, they're pleased to. - Alan Kay, Personal Computing Historic Beginnings

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#392

Post by courtf » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

corpMaverick wrote: post #231

tosser0001 wrote: post #72

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

You bring a great point that I think needs to be discussed further. Every year I spend more time banging my head and I think it is having serious effect on my mental health. I enjoy programming and I don't really spend a lot of time debugging. My code usually runs fine, or I am able to easily find out what is wrong. It is the whole combined complexity of all the tools that we use. Git, Java, maven, gradle, jenkins, O…

Oh yes, this tool situation is the worst part of our jobs imo. Every time I see a new layer coming in, I instinctively duck.

I hate how much time and brain space these things occupy. I can't even by lazy when working with them, there's always a ton of tiny things to read about and factor in, and often no shortcuts to just getting it over with. You have to be cautious and try to get it right the first time because most of them inevitably involve spending money, and your dumb mistakes will be quickly discovered.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#393

Post by restalis » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

Regarding the composition of political domain in UK and the fact that it doesn't have much engineers taking active/prominent roles, it speaks more about the local culture than about the relation between politics and engineering. I understand that China has a lot of engineers in its leadership.

Regarding the politics in a democracy (UK and beyond), yes, it's a good point to look for the political apparatus as it presents well enough the essence of the underlying game, with its public image grooming and selection, all tailored to the perceived status in the masses. But then, looking at engineering (CS and other fields), I fail to see anything detrimental to public image buildup. May it be that engineering is a gate with a higher cost for a mere pass through when one aims to politics and thus makes itself a deal-breaker to that end?

Regarding the perceived lack of social status for engineering in general, I consider it a blessing. I'm quite glad there is a field where people have to be paid well (for their hard-earned skills and due to the sheer market demand), yet the status whoring game is relatively limited. I'm only afraid that it won't last.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#394

Post by gryn » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #381

jabbernotty wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k? They did specify "outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA". Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k.

> Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k. That's on par with engineers in any other discipline. Except those have a Masters, not just a bootcamp.

Well in the Paris region, as an additional data point people with a master degree from rather good engineering schools get 35K - 45K euro.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#395

Post by mlboss » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #235

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

Yup, this is my biggest problem with the field. 15 years in the industry and I've never seen anyone promoted out of IT. Your only escape is a being a founder of a startup. We are not included in conversations that matter. Our opinions are discarded. We are simply dispensable cogs in the machine, its equivalent to data entry work. No status, no opinion worth listening to. I did comp sci because my dad said it was a go…

This is a totally different experience than mine. I did Electrical Engineering but have been a programmer all my career. I love programming. I love the creative process, the bugs, the build system, the frustration. I love everything about it. Maybe its a personality thing. I was never into what others think.

Also, I think you don't work in a pure tech company. My experience in the valley is that programmers are considered first-class employees. All my managers were programmers, some programmed on side. They understood all the complexity that goes in building a software. You can try moving into one of the pure tech companies.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#396

Post by silveroriole » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #356

burntoutfire wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen plenty of coders promoted into management. Of course, it takes time - first they have to prove themselves in some tech lead or product owner role and later, if they seem capable, they can go higher. Come to this about it, two out of three of my current bosses (incl. a guy who has hundreds of people under him) are ex-coders.

Where do you work because this categorically does not happen to any appreciable degree in small to medium sized companies in London. Also I would kill for a product owner role. The idea that a programmer can get into a PO role is laughable. I've never seen even the glimmer of a chance of that happening to either myself or my peers.

What do you count as a small company? My experience at a small company in London was that I had to be a combined programmer, manager, product owner, project manager and user researcher very early on because, well, there weren’t enough employees/customers to have actual qualified people acting in those roles full-time. (And it’s cheaper to make one person do all the roles and only pay them for one role, of course...)

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#397

Post by restalis » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

racl101 wrote: post #283

thegeomaster wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, a lot of FAANG companies' offices look like kindergartens. I get that all of the perks are "cool" to someone, but to me it's just embarrassing.

It also doesn't help that the perceived uniform of the programmer is a hoodie or an ironic t-shirt and chinos style of pants or similar regalia. Like, that just doesn't look cool. I've been saying this for years. It's no wonder it doesn't look sexy nor command much respect. Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit. Sure, it feels good, but that's the same rationale for wearing crocs. You feel gre…

"Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit."

I think you got it wrong. That suit guy has to wear it, because his trade demands it, most likely for that image which has to be conveyed. That programmer can afford to wear that hoodie and still to demand his salary, yet nothing limits him to the hoodie outfit, you see?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#398

Post by silveroriole » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #64

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

That pretty much lays out one of the more standard explanations for why more women don't go into CS. Things arguably changed in the early 80s with the rise of PCs and gaming. While programming certainly existed before that, it wasn't something that most kids were exposed to in high school and CS curricula in general were heavily theory oriented and often in the Math department. Today, if you want to be a mechanical e…

I don’t follow the argument. OK, CS assumes some knowledge. What’s that got to do with why WOMEN don’t go into CS? It’s only relevant if you start with the same assumption that the student has - mostly boys like programming, therefore women don’t gain the knowledge required to go into CS. But that’s just a tautology: women don’t like CS because they don’t like CS.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#399

Post by avh02 » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

HanP77 wrote: post #161

tosser0001 wrote: post #72

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

This I've been working has a web developer for two years after completing a bootcamp. Peoples often ask me questions because they think about doing the same. I always say to them that this is not for everbody, you are banging your head against the wall most of the time. Off course nothing beat that sensation when you finally found the problem or even when you get closer. But that has to be your thing.

I know that exact feeling. The first time I solved an issue and felt that rush is the moment I knew I wanted to pursue CS. Haven't looked back since.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#400

Post by t-writescode » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

JSavageOne wrote: post #362

tosser0001 wrote: post #72

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

The sad part is that you're not allowed to say this or nobody will hire you since you will be deemed "not passionate enough". This is a unique trait to CS careers that does not exist in other jobs where they rightfully treat their jobs like a job, not some spiritual life calling.

I say it all the time - I have a bit of a history of speaking my mind, though.

"If you don't enjoy computer science, please oh please don't do it. You're going to hate every waking day if this isn't fun. It's some of the worst stuff you could possibly do if you don't love it."