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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#381

Post by benhurmarcel »

jabbernotty wrote: post #118
thebean11 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not even good pay outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k?

> That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k? They did specify "outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA". Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k.

> Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k.

That's on par with engineers in any other discipline. Except those have a Masters, not just a bootcamp.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#382

Post by orthoxerox »

battertenr wrote: post #47

The reason is because it is a terrible job. Unlikely 90% of other jobs, you have to mentally burn your brain out each day, constantly learn new things, and focus intensely, supposedly for 8 hours. The reward is nothing, not even good pay outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA. If you compare it to a trade, there is a night and day difference to your mental health. The wage data in this article is meaningless b…

> battertenr 7 hours ago [–]

The reason is because it is a terrible job. Unlikely 90% of other jobs, you have to mentally burn your brain out each day, constantly learn new things, and focus intensely, supposedly for 8 hours.

Yes, and I can't imagine working a job where you do the same thing over and over, day after day, year after year. Data entry, accounting, 1st and 2nd level support, driving a taxi, hell, even flying a jumbo jet.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#383

Post by sixstringtheory »

zanmat0 wrote: post #373
sixstringtheory wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have started by asking what position she was looking for, and if she started all the way at the top like CEO, I’d whittle it down by starting with “don’t you think encouraging your entire class to aim only for the top, that you’ll be setting lots of them up for failure?” And if she didn’t relent, follow it up with “people who are on a CEO track need to know what life is like for those who build their products…

Its easy to come up with that after having thought it over for 30 seconds but on the spot, when what the person just told you comes as a shock, you're unlikely to muster up such a response.

Oh I have plenty of that too. But it's usually the case that saying _anything_ reasonable is enough of a foot in the door to a wider conversation. And it's a lot like creativity, or math, or music... the more you do it, the better you get at it.

It's like when you learn a new language, one of the first things you learn is how to say "I don't speak X well, please slow down" in that language. Same with debate: learn how to say "I'm trying to better understand" to prime the other person for a conversation. Sometimes they'll start talking for you–that's even a common negotiation tactic, to let the other person talk to basically give you a few points to think about questioning/rebutting, or look for contradictions.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#384

Post by blackrock »

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

The computer screen and keyboard is just the interface. It’s the tools that you must use to access the computer (for now).

The real magic is in the ideas, the thought processes, and the algorithms that makes the programs come alive. You can scratch this out on a chalkboard, if you want.

You’re like a magician, that is able to synthesize something, from really nothing, except a bunch of bits organized together to mean something.

On the flip side, these folks spend hours on their iPhones reading their depressing Facebook feeds.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#385

Post by tolger »

As the article states, many developers have degrees other than CS. I have a BS/MS in Mathematics and have worked as a developer for the past 20 years. Interestingly, back in the early 2000s, it seemed that having a degree in Math was actually an advantage for me. I think I got a lot of interviews because of that.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#386

Post by courtf »

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

This is definitely an issue, and well put by the student you spoke to. Who wants to be surrounded by odoriferous, socially challenged young men, in any scenario? I occasionally consider myself as part of that group, and I'm irritated just thinking about us!

What knowledge could be worth the risk to your social life, computers!? You'll make more money and meet more interesting people elsewhere. Even just across the hall, the math class looks like they're having much more fun.

CS 101 should be cracking the enigma machine and defeating the damn nazis, not writing Python (Bleegh!).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#387

Post by chrisseaton »

subsubzero wrote: post #290

A few observations I have seen(US Based): - In college there were basically no women in any of my classes, like 1 or 2 in a class of 30-40. Not having an entire gender being interested in a field(generally speaking) makes numbers overall very low. - In a Java class I took in college, it was standing room only for the first two sessions, after 3 weeks the class was 70% reduced, by the end of the class it was about 25%…

> In a Java class I took in college, it was standing room only for the first two sessions, after 3 weeks the class was 70% reduced, by the end of the class it was about 25% of its original size. CS is hard, lets be honest(for most people), to excel you have to love it or be mathematically inclined.

I don't understand how a college survives 75% of their students dropping out like that?

And do they not interview and assess people going in for aptitude?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#388

Post by blaser-waffle »

ahartmetz wrote: post #316
commandlinefan wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and never be appreciated for it. ("why did it take so long?")

Money is a quite sincere form of appreciation :)

Don Draper: It's your job. I give you money, you give me ideas.

Peggy Olson: And you never say thank you.

Don Draper: That's what the money is for!

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#389

Post by gHosts »

Because there are such perverse incentives in Academia that what they do and teach have no relevance to anybody.

eg. There was a major linux conference at the local university.... Full of cutting edge real world OS / HW stuff.

The CS department didn't bother to attend.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#390

Post by screye »

smabie wrote: post #368
Pfhreak wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of contractors who improve their own homes in their spare time, artists who paint in their spare time, writers with side projects, teachers who do planning/look for lessons, etc. etc. That said, I think we'd all be better off if engineers demanded collectively not to work more than 40 hours. (Tech unions/guilds could be formed and focused just on stuff like limiting hours/paying for overtime and oncall,…

In general, the less hours everyone works, the greater the advantage you have in working more. By just working 10 extra hours, I can be 25% more productive (there's a lot of simplying assumptions there, of course). This is why the 4 day work week never took off: I can just work one more day and realize a 25% boost in output, a major boon to my career. Developers don't have much in common with the workers who original…

> most over can boost up to 80 and be fine for a couple months though

Staying alone and being a well put together human with relationships becomes completely impossible the second I go past 55-ish hours.

> people are expected to work more than devs it's finance

Finance is toxic at a whole another level. The rampant smoking, cocaine use, work hard/play hard etc. is in some sense mirrored in similarly intensive silicon valley startups where aderall abuse is just as rampant.

I am also not sure if the finance analytics work is as creatively taxing as coding (at least the design stage), which can be a major distinction.

Either ways, I hope CS never becomes like finance, ever.

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