Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…
Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
361–370 of 452 posts
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#362The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
At 39, you are right at that tipping point where job offers mysteriously start drying up. I'm not speaking from first hand experience, I've only been doing this for 10 years since graduating, but this is what I regularly hear from older programmers. That's not to say that it isn't possible to survive past 40 as a programmer, my point was just that this is a deterrence for getting a Computer Science degree. Think abou…
I have to disagree with what you've heard -- I know far more than the other developers I work with when it comes to both old technology (which is still extremely relevant) and new (such as react etc) -- the bootcamp devs I've worked with have a barebones understanding of coding and regularly make massive mistakes that cost companies money. Fresh graduates are no better, nor are outsourced developers. When it comes to…
My comment is about the perception of older programmers and why this may affect enrollment in Computer Science.
I agree with your analysis, but this is not the perception that the general population holds.
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
Scientists - not just CS, but biologists, chemists, etc. - are not in elected leadership positions very much. I agree they are frequently not willing to represent. But again - why? A few opinions: * scientists (computer, life, or otherwise) do not think their talents are best used in making public policy. There are so many other ways those talents and intelligence could be used * perhaps worse pay (though the benefit…
I remember reading somewhere that the Chinese government is full of engineers/STEM degree holders, Physics, Civil, etc as opposed to lawyers in the U.S. Assuming that's true, it makes sense from a 30,000ft level. CCP requires leaders to meet some socio-economic goal and that requires competency and a loose ability to apply scientific methodology. In the U.S. it's much more important to argue your case, sound good and…
As a result, the education level of the current Politburo members is shockingly low. For example, Xi Jinping barely finished his middle school, then went to Tsinghua as a Worker-Peasant-Soldier student[1]. Apparently he was not well-educated, as he makes so many illiterate mistakes [2] in public speeches.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker-Peasant-Soldier_stude... [2] https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AF%B9%E4%B9%A0%E8%BF%91%...
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#365- Computer science to me sounded way more fun than it actually was. I loved building things and programming, but that's not what CS is. CS is theory. I was bored to tears learning about sorting algorithms and binary search trees.
Same applies to machine learning and AI. The reality of studying it was way less fun than the idea. Even my AI professor acknowledged that.
- As someone who'd always taught myself programming on my own, I didn't see the point in dedicating my 4 years of study to something I felt like I could teach myself. Since there was a good chance I'd probably end up working as a software engineer anyways, I thought it'd be smarter to study something I probably wouldn't otherwise ever teach myself on my own.
- This is rude and shallow, but I didn't like my CS classmates. There was such a disproportionately high amount of weirdos, and I didn't want to be surrounded with those people all day and god forbid become one of them. I vividly remember studying in the CS lounge and having to stop myself from face-palming. If I was a sociable kid it probably wouldn't matter, but as a socially awkward kid it would be too easy to only be surrounded like similar people the rest of my life and never evolve.
- Software engineering seemed boring, just being stuck in a cubicle all day. I did an internship as a programmer, and although it was relatively easy, moderately interesting, and stress-fee, I was terrified of the thought of spending the rest of my life in that cubicle.
- I wanted more money and status. At the time (almost 10 years ago), it seemed that finance was the highest paying and most prestigious field to go into. Finance sounded more exciting, and I liked the idea of their being no ceiling on compensation, whereas software engineering seemed capped at $200k/yr. Of course now things have changed, and tech comp at big corporations tops out at more like $500k/yr (or more if you get equity and win the startup lotto), and tech is way more respected than before. High finance still pays the most, but those jobs are basically limited to Ivy League graduates, the hours are insane, authoritarian work cultures, no remote work, and IMO the work is extremely boring and utterly meaningless, even moreso than software engineering where at least you're actually creating something.
Of course my views nearly a decade since graduating have evolved. I gave in and took on a career in software engineering, which I've attempted to leave at times but always ended up returning (though once I'm financially independent you better believe I'll be gone for good). But at least at the time those were some reasons why I dropped my CS major despite being convinced since high school that that was my calling.
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#366Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#367Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#368Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…
I know plenty of contractors who improve their own homes in their spare time, artists who paint in their spare time, writers with side projects, teachers who do planning/look for lessons, etc. etc. That said, I think we'd all be better off if engineers demanded collectively not to work more than 40 hours. (Tech unions/guilds could be formed and focused just on stuff like limiting hours/paying for overtime and oncall,…
Developers don't have much in common with the workers who originally created unions. Some of the differences are that work can be done at home, the potential for advancement and greater salaries is very high, and that the non-physical nature of the work allows you to work very long hours. All of these factors conspire to undermine any 40 hour max set by a developer union.
As average hours worked go up, the benefit of each extra hour goes down. I'm not sure where exactly the equilibrium is, but personally, I find that over the long term, over 60 hours per week leaves me feeling a little shitty and depressed, especially if I have a commute. I think most over can boost up to 80 and be fine for a couple months though.
If there's one profession where people are expected to work more than devs it's finance. New analysts in finance are pulling 100-120 For at least their first. I've done those kind of hours for maybe one week, but it kills you, both physically and mentally.
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nothing quite matches that triumphant moment when you finally discover the root cause of an issue that's been bothering you for days.
At which point you bang your head into the wall because the fix is so bloody obvious. :-)
The culprit was an extra build action (among ~20) that had been cut-and-pasted from Stack Overflow 1.5 years ago and worked splendidly, until an unrelated update (dev machine prerequisite, installed organization-wide) caused it to behave differently on local builds but not on the build servers. The check-in comment of the commit in question was "merge hmm", and the start time of the failure is uncertain because the project was rarely built outside of the centralized build infrastructure (where it worked fine). 10 cumulative hours of debugging across four developers was spent to figure this out.
In my experience, these kinds of "WTF" errors happen more often than the ones that make you go "wow, I am stupid". At least when you reach a skill level where the obvious problems don't show up so often.
But the point stands that this requires an uncommon kind of patience. Hooray, we solved it. Now we are finally able to modify the back-end behavior of this specific type of mutual fund order, which is what we wanted in the first place. Think the finance part of the task is more interesting than the banging your head against the wall debugging the tech stack part? Tough luck! Should have been born at the time when this happened by manually operating a terminal in the back office.
Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in m…
Programmers have a bad reputation with Feminists. Hanging out in any online Feminist space is very illuminating - they have gone on many dates with people who do what we do, and they're contemptuously familiar with "us" as a class. If you're trying to date in a tech city, I think you pretty much have to do this - there are a lot of "tech bro" memes out there for you to step in on the first date. This prejudice seems…