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Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

blog.anylist.com

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Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#61

Post by crispyporkbites »

duxup wrote: post #45
no_wizard wrote: post #12

A lot of the points they make here are real points, and I think AnyList has validity in their actions. I also think it’s not as unmanageable as it seems. Let’s analyze this quote, from the article, as it highlights what I imagine are a big crux of this issue: > with the “Hide My Email” option, your spouse or friends obviously won’t know your privaterelay.appleid.com email address, so when they enter your email addres…

I wonder if Apple would be ok with asking them to give up their email? Apple clearly likes the idea of the hide option... personally I would expect a less than positive reception from Apple. I get where both AnyList (if they asked) and Apple (if they didn't like it) would be coming from here. It does seem to be a shortcoming here where outside of a user one time sign up situation... you don't want to have to burden t…

Why should Apple be allowed to dictate if an app asks for an email address? They should not become the defacto law makers of our society

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#62

Post by ogre_codes »

tboyd47 wrote: post #2

There's a subtle sense of exuberance shining through in this article that makes it a gratifying read, even if you've never heard of the company before. Kudos to them for their decision not to bow to Apple's demands. Please tell us how it goes!

> bow to Apple's demands.

Apple "demanded" companies either add their privacy friendly sign in option, or give up on the data-slurping Facebook google sign-ups. This company gave up FB sign in, which they acknowledge is pretty gross and bloated.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#63

Post by no_wizard »

blendergeek wrote: post #37
danudey wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good that you read Hey's blog post and are repeating it here, but it's not very accurate in this case. Specifically, if you implement Sign In with Apple, then they are still your customers as much as ever, they just might choose to hide their information from you because they don't trust you, which means that the power in the relationship is transferred to the user instead of the app developer.

> "Apple reserves the right to disable Sign in with Apple on a website or app for any reason at any time." I think GP is absolutely right here. Apple can take the customers at any time for any reason . Apple could ban you from using Sign in with Apple simply because Tim Cook doesn't like what food you eat for breakfast. So, I have to agree with GP that these are Apple's customers at this point.

The check on this is that you are now putting an inconvenience on that apps users. Maybe it’s okay in some isolated circumstance however, I imagine this won’t sit well if it becomes a reoccurring theme for iOS users, as they will come to view Sign In With Apple as unstable/unsafe (like Google and it’s graveyard). It would quickly render Sign In With Apple useless if the trust that it will continue to work whenever used is not there

I actually think this wouldn’t really happen in practice as consumers are quick to respond negatively to this behavior, so I’d be shocked if Apple actually did this without some darn good reason (I imagine it will also include removing said app)

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#64

Post by duxup »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #61
duxup wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if Apple would be ok with asking them to give up their email? Apple clearly likes the idea of the hide option... personally I would expect a less than positive reception from Apple. I get where both AnyList (if they asked) and Apple (if they didn't like it) would be coming from here. It does seem to be a shortcoming here where outside of a user one time sign up situation... you don't want to have to burden t…

Why should Apple be allowed to dictate if an app asks for an email address? They should not become the defacto law makers of our society

I'm not sure they should be able to, but I assume they could disable Sign in with Apple for a given site if they wished.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#65

Post by duxup »

whateveracct wrote: post #56
duxup wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if Apple would be ok with asking them to give up their email? Apple clearly likes the idea of the hide option... personally I would expect a less than positive reception from Apple. I get where both AnyList (if they asked) and Apple (if they didn't like it) would be coming from here. It does seem to be a shortcoming here where outside of a user one time sign up situation... you don't want to have to burden t…

I don't think Apple would care about asking for email for legitimate use. I thought the point of Sign in with Apple is that it decouples giving away your email from signing up. Not that it bans apps from collecting emails in any way.

I hope so.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#66

Post by sixstringtheory »

stickfigure wrote: post #43
djrogers wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different from FB/Google's login services? The only apps that are required to support Sign in with Apple are those that also support FB/G/etc sign in, so those companies have already chosen a path...

Google provides an email address. You could replace your Google auth with password auth in an afternoon just by adding a "forgot your password" link. Facebook auth used to provide an email address, but it's been almost a decade since I last used their APIs so I don't know if that has changed. Apple's "provide an anonymous email address" inserts them between you and your customer.

Not sure about Google auth, but I created a Spotify account with their FB login years ago. About 1.5 years ago I wanted to decouple them, but they have no way to do it. I had to create an entirely new account. Not sure if it's a technical limitation or just a case of Spotify not prioritizing it, but their support tech did relate to me that they had lots of those switches occurring at the time.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#67

Post by AshamedCaptain »

I found it jarring that Apple would present themselves as the vanguard defenders of privacy by announcing what is basically an email relay service. Most privacy-conscious people wouldn't exactly think of their emails going through Apple as any particular win in privacy.

And even for the "general user" I find the argument very weak, since it doesn't look as being any easier than using any other email relay, and there is a huge obvious conflict of interest for Apple here (they get data they may not have had otherwise PLUS have yet another tool to bind you to their services).

It reminds me of the days where everyone in the www was making OpenID providers but no one was actually willing to do an actual OpenID _consumer_. So that I could actually use _my_ identity provider on a server of _my_ choice instead of going through the hoops of yet another large company for no reason.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#68

Post by elicash »

stickfigure wrote: post #8

If you implement Sign In With Apple, you don't have a relationship with your customers anymore. They're Apple's customers, and Apple can take them away at any time.

Not every app maker WANTS to store this user data.

Some makers just want things to work and to keep the process as simple as possible for the user.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#69

Post by rmorey »

dheerendra73 wrote: post #29
muro wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen an app that required a FB or Google login. It was always possible to use email+password.

Lucky you! I've run into lot of these apps offering only FB/Google sign in. Or offering mobile number only login. For e.g. I like playing scrabble and Scrabble Go only support FB login so I'm playing only as Guest user for months now. Mobile number login is even worse! Why do I need to share my mobile number for something where you don't need to have it!

I think a lot of services use mobile number login as a way of bot-limiting; harder to create lots of phony email addresses than phone numbers. But it's still a pain in the butt :(

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#70

Post by addicted »

ssalka wrote: post #32
danudey wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since you know this to be the case, why not have an onboard if flow they Sign In with Apple where you have them A) choose a visibility email used for sharing/communication etc. and B) allow for this email to be their backup email? So if they forget their login or whatever you could just transfer the account to this email instead? I'm fairly certain that detecting someone hiding their e-mail from you and then making…

> making them pick a different e-mail I think it's more about _letting_ them pick a different email. While I can understand that AnyList (or any other app for that matter) would want to, on occasion, send marketing emails to users, I don't think any app would, in their right mind, _require_ the user to provide a 2nd email address. But by allowing them to optionally give that 2nd address, they can provide a path forwa…

So someone explicitly chose to hide their email, and then on logging into an app is asked to share their real email.

Anyone in that position would think the app is shady AF and user hostile.

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