Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#191

Post by bt4u3 » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

whichdan wrote: post #177

corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

Please don't assume everyone on HN is male.

I don't think anyone are assuming everyone is, but assuming a specific reader is male is gonna be correct more often than not

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#192

Post by dbancajas » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #145

jabbernotty wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k? They did specify "outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA". Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k.

My first tech job wasn't event at a FAANG company and I made $110k right out of college. My next job was at a ~1,000 person startup and my salary was bumped up to over $160k. Maybe it's a Europe vs US thing but it's definitely not the case that salary is poor outside of tech giants.

bay area? dang that's a lot. is that writing CRUD apps? EE PhD's don't earn that amount even with 2 years experience

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#193

Post by lobotryas » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

na85 wrote: post #179

corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

>They are more socially aware than we are. Is there any evidence that women are more likely to choose careers with high social prestige? I find this doubtful, since in North America at least the traditionally female-dominated job sectors seem to be the ones with lower social prestige. Compare the prestige of a nurse with a cardiac surgeon: which is more stereotypically male?

You are saying nurses, teachers and social workers have “low social prestige”? People worship the ground these folks walk on for their “selfless sacrifice” and what-not.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#194

Post by GhostVII » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

lollipoplol wrote: post #186

na85 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are more socially aware than we are. Is there any evidence that women are more likely to choose careers with high social prestige? I find this doubtful, since in North America at least the traditionally female-dominated job sectors seem to be the ones with lower social prestige. Compare the prestige of a nurse with a cardiac surgeon: which is more stereotypically male?

This also isn't true in places other than North America. In countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, there is way more gender parity in IT than in the USA.

In poorer countries like the ones you listed, the benefits of a higher paying job are more likely to outweigh the social costs than they would be in a more wealthy country. So the social aspect becomes less important.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#195

Post by exdsq » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

geogra4 wrote: post #163

exdsq wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years and couldn't be covered in a module? I have thought about this before and argued for Software Engineering to be a specific course/field, but it's just too ephemeral at the moment with a lack of 'core' elements to warrant a 3 year course. Edit: To be clear, I want the…

I agree. I think there is a definite need for real 'Software Engineering' discipline that focuses on things like project estimations, timelines, codebase management, best practices, etc.

Absolutely! Some companies are great at this but most (from my experience) use the term but there's 0 'engineering' involved - it's just hacking bits of code together and hoping it lives long enough for a customer to sign off on UAT. There was a good talk on this subject last week - here's the recording if you're interested https://youtu.be/3018ABlET1Y

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#196

Post by ghaff » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

jjice wrote: post #150

ghaff wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pretty much lays out one of the more standard explanations for why more women don't go into CS. Things arguably changed in the early 80s with the rise of PCs and gaming. While programming certainly existed before that, it wasn't something that most kids were exposed to in high school and CS curricula in general were heavily theory oriented and often in the Math department. Today, if you want to be a mechanical e…

> Today, if you want to be a mechanical engineering major there's no expectation that you lived in a machine shop all through high school or otherwise spent all your spare time in hobbies related to your college major. Really good point. As someone who grew up with computers and programming, despite loving all of it, there is a bit of pressure to continue to work on side projects constantly. In reality, I don't think…

I haven't worked as an engineer for a long time but I got a degree in mechanical engineering. Truth be told, I never had a hobby of fiddling around with cars or doing most of the other stereotypical things that mechanical engineers are "supposed" to do in their free time.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#197

Post by roosterdawn » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #166

roosterdawn wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. Either you are conflating vocation, field of academic study, political power, socioeconomic class and status, or things are just different in the UK. Here in the US, you rarely study computer science to become a computer scientist but rather to be a highly paid engineer or eventually obscenely wealthy founder. The same is true for philosophers, authors, politicians and composers; increasingly, t…

Anyone with money can have clout. Are computer scientists invited into the club before they have money? No. Do they get offered the opportunities that money doesn't buy? No. That's the difference.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I think that clarifies your viewpoint considerably. If you don't mind me asking, could you elaborate on the kinds of opportunities that money doesn't buy? And furthermore, to what extent have you seen vocation give access to that which is not given by heredity or caste? I think that would help elucidate the subtle distinction between high clout and high social status.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#198

Post by niknetniko » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #160

Personally I think something like Electrical Engineering is more valuable. At my company EE folks are often competent in both hardware and software, but the CS folks are completely incompetent at hardware and don't even understand basic GPIO usage.

A lot of EE folks I've met _think_ they are competent in software, but I'd beg to differ. Similarly, I've met plenty of CS majors who know their way round hardware.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#199

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

I'll echo the sentiment myself.

I'm not a SW engineer by training or profession. However, that I can deal with computers/programming at all has been a mixed curse/blessing for me. Typically, if a computer problem comes up, I'm the one to deal with it, simply because no one else can.

That means I've learned 'enough' about a lot of obscure topics to really get into trouble.

Honestly, I hate it at the time, but in the long term, it means my career is pretty alright. Still, I agree with the young lady's dislike of staring at yet another incomprehensible screen for weeks on end. It's not why I got into what I did and it's a bit of a waste of my attention.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#200

Post by thaumasiotes » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

rjsw wrote: post #111

NalNezumi wrote: post #48

I've always seen the same pattern in College decision: self-projection. That is, a combination of what they know and what they think they can do/like . Most people choosing Uni choose from what they know. Majority of young people know little about anything CS or nerdy; They often know the end product (computers, phones, apps) but very little about the people working on it. Compare that to doctors, managers, Wallstree…

> I've always seen the same pattern in College decision: self-projection. That is, a combination of what they know and what they think they can do/like. I was guilty of that but I don't think I was wrong to think that way. I decided to work in Computing when I was 10 and would like to think that I'm quite good at it, but felt that I'm not good enough at doing essay style exams to be able to pass a CS degree.

> I decided to work in Computing when I was 10 and would like to think that I'm quite good at it, but felt that I'm not good enough at doing essay style exams to be able to pass a CS degree.

This doesn't make much sense; you'd be taking math exams, not writing essays.

Source: I have a CS degree.