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Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

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Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a worrying trend in the conversation these days that has shifted from "there's a serious problem with racism in how police go about their job" to "we need less police". The conversations aren't about less police, they're about defunding the police and putting that money to better use. If the police choose to reduce their numbers in order to afford riot gear, tear gas guns, armored personnel carriers, warrio…

> The conversations aren't about less police, they're about defunding the police cutting police budget = less police

If they're unwilling to stop buying expensive toys then yes the reduction will hit labor.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing if those dollars are invested in other types of emergency responders.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#592
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few facts to note: Blacks kill more blacks than any other race or ethinicity.[1] Blacks also kill more whites, than whites kill blacks in pure numbers.[1] When you factor in the size of the respective populations on a per capita ratio, then the numbers just get worse.[2] On a more positive note, though, crimes are reported to generally have gone down over the last few years. In fact there's nothing in the data to s…

You're making a lot of (intentional or not) dogwhistles. So let's dive in to a few of them: > Blacks kill more blacks than any other race or ethinicity.[1] Blacks also kill more whites, than whites kill blacks in pure numbers. Indeed, let's rephrase this: races in the US continue to be relatively segregated[0]. And crimes, even violent ones, are usually committed within-community. So the meme around "black on black v…

While not the author of the post you are responding to, I really appreciate this response. I have largely spent my life believing one way on these issues and have tried to be more open minded regarding my basic assumptions about American society. You taking the time to respond in such a thoughtful manner and tone and providing good information to dig deeper on helps me tremendously.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you trying to suggest that there are a large number of unreported, undiscovered murders in more affluent areas? No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I'm saying that the same forces the put poor communities of color at risk for crime also likely disrupt the collection of statistics in more wealthy & powerful communities. This is important because both sides of the ratio matter…

> No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I focused on murders because the grandparent DID mention them, and because murder rate is much less exposed to reporting bias than other crimes.

That makes sense, but that's also why I pulled out the absolutest statement about all violent crime.

I agree that murder is one of the crimes least likely to go unreported, but they are still subject to the same pressures (even if those pressures are less efficacious). I'd be interested to see, for instance, if the ratio of murders to missing people changes as you move up the socioeconomic ladder.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#594
post #573
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2019, eight people were killed and 43 were injured in 25 school shooting incidents. 2018 was much worse with 37 kids killed in school shootings. This is roughly the same as the number of unarmed black people shot and killed by police in the line of duty (at least this number has been trending downward for several years).

Do you have a source for the this? Reporting of school shootings is notoriously unreliable: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-sch...

I agree, there's no standard definition. I grabbed the 8 / 43 number for 2019 here [1]. I see they have similar numebers as what I found for 2018 as well [2].

The 2018 numbers I was referencing was from this 10 year overview [3].

[1] - https://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/school-shooting...

[2] - https://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/school-shooting...

[3] - https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/07/us/ten-years-of-scho...

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#595
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is one piece of evidence of systemic racism. The problem with your counterexample ("systemic famine"/"systemic war"/etc.) is that those are one-off events in the past, and thus they don't cumulatively add up and compound to create very unequal outcomes today. A more appropriate hypothetical would be that the last 400 years of one's ancestors all experienced genocide, war, or other similarly "crappy" things.

Focusing on one piece at a time is how we do logic. You need to defend the weakest link in your case. Or are you suggesting that the various pieces of systemic racism are not themselves racism, until aggregated together? As for one-off events, it seems like just a matter of degree, not principle. Though surely genocide continue to have negative affects on the victimized group to this day.

[deleted]

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#596
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is one piece of evidence of systemic racism. The problem with your counterexample ("systemic famine"/"systemic war"/etc.) is that those are one-off events in the past, and thus they don't cumulatively add up and compound to create very unequal outcomes today. A more appropriate hypothetical would be that the last 400 years of one's ancestors all experienced genocide, war, or other similarly "crappy" things.

Focusing on one piece at a time is how we do logic. You need to defend the weakest link in your case. Or are you suggesting that the various pieces of systemic racism are not themselves racism, until aggregated together? As for one-off events, it seems like just a matter of degree, not principle. Though surely genocide continue to have negative affects on the victimized group to this day.

Regardless of whether you think it's a "weak link", this isn't a logical proof where you can disprove one statement rendering the entire proof invalid. Rather, you have to disprove each piece of evidence for systemic racism in order to disprove it exists.

Your argument is mostly "whataboutism" - you point out that terrible things have happened to groups of people in the past and those things have inter-generational effects. Of course it's true.

That being said, of course it's a matter of degree, but at that point you're just arguing semantics. Driving your car at 25mph vs 125mph is only a difference of degree, and yet one is totally permissible and the other is incredibly dangerous and would land you with a big fine. The key point here is that speeding becomes increasingly more dangerous as you drive faster, to the point that exceeding speed limits by a given amount becomes reckless driving because you're much more likely to cause injury and/or death to yourself and others. In the same way, racist systems create a compounding disadvantage that is almost impossible to rectify simply by changing the laws to make them "colorblind" in the modern day.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on that? I'm really curious about what the differences were.

The guy was quite down on his time in Australia, and the aggressive policing he was expected to do. He contrasted that with his time in the UK and (particularly) in NZ the role seemed to allow more tolerance and leeway and was described by him as 'progressive'. The NZ police aim seemed to be to get compliance without police charges or fines by engaging in a less combative manner. He described quite harsh measures tak…

I"ve lived in all 3 of those countries (although have never worked for the police). My experience is just as your friend describes.

The cops in Oz are truly awful! There was a recent scandal where cops were strip-searching teenage girls just for fun. Cops there will also spend more time fining people on bicycles that don't have a bell, than they would in any important crimes.

It differs a bit by state. Apparently NSW and Vic have it worst, although QLD is right up there. Of course in the nation's capital, Canberra, they have the soft ones.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#598
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People saying “defund the police” are not advocating the complete elimination of police forces; they’re advocating for the elimination of the 75-90% of things that police spend their time on that has zero or negative ROI for society. “Responding to legitimate crimes” is not one of those things.

Except the areas that are dismantling their police forces. The expression means different things to different people

Could you be more specific, preferably with a link?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#599
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude you have it backwards because the police in the US historically functioned to support slavery. I bet you didn’t intend it to be but your argument basically blames the victim, when it’s the oppressor who is guilty of a crime - not the oppressed. It’s the fault of the oppressor for oppressing, that is the blocker to progress, not the response of the oppressed. The police are what need to change because they were a…

I have no idea how you could construe what I wrote as disagreeing with you.

It sounds like I misread it - my apologies.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#600
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is man.

Quote which part was contrary

Original/parent comment for this conversation said:

> There's a worrying trend in the conversation these days that has shifted from "there's a serious problem with racism in how police go about their job" to "we need less police". Folks in neighborhoods living with the constant threat of gang violence don't have the luxury to sit in their aeron chairs and argue about defunding the police. They face the very real threat of themselves or their loved ones being shot on the streets and statistically not by police.

The contrary part:

> The threat of gang violence is not mitigated by police response. The threat of gang violence is mitigated by providing much better options for people who would otherwise join gangs. Police presence is immaterial to the lack of gangs in affluent neighborhoods.

Original comment basically said "police are important to protect against violence in neighborhoods where there's a lot of it. W/the implication that said violence is gang violence.

The response argued that if we want to decrease or eliminate gang violence, we have to address the root issue, which is basically criminal neglect of neighborhoods (lack of schools, hospitals, entire communities systematically oppressed, disenfranchised, and neglected, etc) b/c of systemic racism.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3698742/

'Conclusions. Relative “trauma deserts” with decreased access to immediate care were found in certain areas of Chicago and adversely affected mortality from GSWs. These results may inform decisions about trauma systems planning and funding.'

Where's the funding for hospitals where it's needed?

Or.

Let's look at the LA uprising (aka the LA riots). Let's look at Ferguson. Let's look at the riots in Baltimore. Those communities clearly had very strong feelings about the police.

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