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Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

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Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#331

Post by qtplatypus »

walrus01 wrote: post #182
thev4lley wrote: post #60

I don't think most people appreciate the level of regulation that ensures safety and quality of life in Western countries. Go to many countries outside of that spectrum and you may still see beautiful architecture and more. Now did the team that worked on that project have the necessary experience to drive a safe and long lasting solution? Does the concrete and steel used follow good standards? This means that it may…

From a western perspective, if you travel to Pakistan and observe the safety/quality of electrical wiring and gas heating/pipe systems, they're shockingly poor. Harsh economic realities mean that not everyone can wire an office or house to the same safety and quality standards that we would see in North America. In my personal opinion the only reason why there are not a constant amount of electrical fires killing peo…

Over the long term however the bad quality of the utility safety is a cost. Both in people killed and repairs needing to be made. It is another case in which it is cheaper to be rich.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#332

Post by flak48 »

seesawtron wrote: post #39

On a smaller but more widespread scale is the issue of fake licenses for driving automobiles. It is common knowledge how you can get these licenses easily in "some" (similar) countries without ever giving a driving test and/or going through any sort of written exam where you have to go through the rules of the road. Some argue that they are only endangering their own lives on the road but one can see how that is comp…

When I took my driving test in India, 3 other candidates ('coincidentally' all female) were made to sit on the backseat, with me at the wheel and the examiner next to me. After the test (in which only I drove), all 4 of us were granted licenses.

The queue for the test was managed in this way - pick one male and pick the 3 next females in queue and pack them up in one car with only the male to drive. I guess they for whatever reason didn't trust women to pass the test by themselves (or they were just sure they knew how to drive?). Or didn't want to waste time testing everyone.

And the test itself ? Take a U turn and stop the car. That's it. I don't know why they even bothered doing the test. Plausible deniability I guess - all of use technically 'took' a test.

Oh after I got out of the car, I asked when my motorcycle test would be, since I had applied for a 2 wheeler license as well. And they just told me you passed the 4 wheeler driving test right? Don't worry about it, we'll send the 2 wheeler license as well.

This was in a major city. If you happen to be in a village or town they don't even bother with this pretence of a test. No wonder India has the highest rate of road accident related fatalities.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#334

Post by duxup »

valuearb wrote: post #269
VBprogrammer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can find the Airbus also requires the weight on wheels and the wheels speed sensors to have spun up before it will apply reverse thrust. Obviously the brakes also only work when the wheels are down. Auto-spoilers wouldn't deploy automatically also.

If I understand correctly does that mean they tried reversers, but they didn’t work so that’s why they initiated a go round?

The initial report indicates they did try to, but many planes won't allow reverse power unless some other indicator (landing gear down an in contact with the ground) says they're on the ground.

So maybe they'll go to idle but won't reverse, because reverse while in the air would be bad.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#335

Post by zymhan »

tux1968 wrote: post #82
ceejayoz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lever should refuse to budge unless moving it will in fact deploy the landing gear. That introduces a new and nasty failure state, "lever locking mechanism gets stuck".

It's not hard to have an override switch. But it would at least make the pilots 100% aware and actively engaged. You have an example right in front of you how the current system is deficient.

Surely you understand there are teams of engineers debating things like this when designing planes, right?

You certainly don't seem to have a deep grasp of aerospace engineering, so maybe trust that others who do have asked these questions.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#336

Post by skissane »

redis_mlc wrote: post #326
skissane wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly both share. Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea were both heavily influence…

> I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.

If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent.

It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures")

Is it only Asian countries which have hierarchical cultures and aviation industries dominated by ex-military? Might some countries in other continents have the same situation? Conversely, might some Asian countries lack that situation?

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#337

Post by tw1912112 »

kayfox wrote: post #319
tw1912112 wrote: post #134

The one thing I have noticed about the PIA air crash is the effort some people have put into trying to explain the crash. Some of them have simulated the whole trip! It's quite depressing, especially since the errors are quite bizzare and the plane crashed into a residential area but thankfully no casualties in the areas. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUOn6FrDPwg [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9ZrliDkNA

One ground fatality and 7 ground injuries, so not good, but not horrifying.

oh wow, ok, didn't know that there was one fatality.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#338

Post by redis_mlc »

skissane wrote: post #336
redis_mlc wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.

If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries…

> I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent.

I never asked for your agreement.

If you want to explore that further, here's an exercise for you. Name one Asian country over 50 million people that doesn't revere their elders.

Back to aviation ...

The West adopted CRM decades ago, which really helped with interpersonal issues in the cockpit. The concept of pilot flying (controls) and pilot non-flying (FMS and radio) are used, and takeoffs and landings are alternated.

Other countries have been slower to embrace CRM, and military and traditional cultural hierarchy issues made that more so. So there are still issues where the captain tells the co-pilot to just sit there, and the co-pilot is afraid to tell the captain of deviations, resulting in accidents.

I give Lionair credit for the excellent CRM during their first 737 MAX incident handling, where a 3rd pilot was able to work with the active crew to save the airplane. (The second incident caused an accident.)

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#339

Post by angch »

m3h wrote: post #208
jessermeyer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an official of the PIA Pilots Association, said Gul was a seasoned pilot with 18,000 hours of experience including over 4,000 hours in the A320." https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-l...

In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negativ…

Normalization of Deviance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance

See also: https://danluu.com/wat/

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#340

Post by skissane »

redis_mlc wrote: post #338
skissane wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries…

> I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. I never asked for your agreement. If you want to explore that further, here's an exercise for you. Name one Asian country over 50 million people that doesn't revere their elders. Back to aviation ... The West adopted CRM decades ago, which really helped with interpersonal issues in the cockpit. The concept of pilot flying (controls) and p…

> Name one Asian country over 50 million people that doesn't revere their elders.

Reverence for elders is by no means unique to Asian cultures, it is found in cultures on other continents as well. It is widespread in African cultures, and in the indigenous cultures of the Americas and Australia. It used to be a big thing in European cultures too, but its importance in European (and European-derived) cultures has greatly declined compared to what it was a few centuries ago.

Maybe rather than "Asian culture" one should say "non-Western cultures"? European-derived cultures, with their contemporary reduced respect for elders compared to most other cultures, are really the odd ones out here.

> Back to aviation ...

It would be interesting to see a comparison of aviation safety records between airlines from different continents, based on actual data. (One could try to perform such an analysis using JACDEC data, e.g [1], although I myself haven't done it.)

[1] https://www.jacdec.de/Order/2019_JACDEC_AIRLINE_RISK_RANKING...

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