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Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

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Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#301

Post by toomanyrichies »

_jal wrote: post #284
toomanyrichies wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In software circles, this is called "security by obscurity" and is frowned upon. And if it's a bad idea with software, I'd argue it's also a bad idea with nuclear weapons.

People constantly misuse that quote to claim that "obscurity" should never be used. This is false; denying your opponent information is a critical component of a well-designed security process. It should not be the only mechanism employed. (I have no clue what, if any, other measures Pakistan employed.)

Yep, I should have clarified that's what I meant. Agreed that obscurity should not be the only strategy employed.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#302

Post by redis_mlc »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #103
bayesianbot wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an updated video from the same channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5rXxJRmf4 I'd start at 4:50.

Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line, the copilot didn't appear to explain the very high approach (7000ft when they should be 3000ft) ... is there a benefit to it?? First thing I learnt on a flight sim: slow down or you can't extend gear. Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face and take over when they realise they're ignoring basic instructions?

> Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line

Time and workload permitting, ATC should inform aircraft of deviations. But most ATC, even in the US, are not pilots.

And ATC instructions are required to be followed except in an emergency, but "demand" is not the right word, as the captain is the final authority in civil flights.

> Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face

Well, that would be unusual, and doing it on final pretty hazardous. But in the Germanwings and probably MH370 accidents, that was the only option to avoid those accidents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

In small airplanes, instructors are prepared to override the rudder by evaluating how strong students are ("So, do you go to the gym?"), and purposefully focusing maximum force on the rudder controls.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#303

Post by wishiwasoutside »

redis_mlc wrote: post #291
t0mas88 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That training would probably fail. I've seen a few licensed pilots with a real license from a country that isn't ICAO standard (and I'm going to guess Pakistan is like that as well) sit in flight training. They didn't do very well, lots of bad habits, not a very enthusiastic attitude towards a training they think they don't need.

> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it wo…

"in Asian culture"

why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#304

Post by bdamm »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #259
chooseaname wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any kind of indicator in the cockpit to remind the pilot? A light? A voice (like the stall voice), that says, "Hey doofus, you're descending and close to landing, so LOWER THE GEAR!"

I’m not a pilot, but I think there’s a “too low” warning

Most airplanes have a "too slow" warning as well, e.g. a speed at which the gear ought to be down because there isn't any other reason to be going so slow except to be landing. The speed also factors into gear retraction, e.g. you are not going fast enough to fly, so gear retraction will not be actuated even if commanded.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#305

Post by theduder99 »

wishiwasoutside wrote: post #303
redis_mlc wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it wo…

"in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?

hackernews

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#306

Post by linuxftw »

woodandsteel wrote: post #268
linuxftw wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is indicative of a systemic culture of rule breaking. This is common in all government run systems. "The system is too arduous, doesn't reflect the 'real world.' We know better than the system, we know what really matters." Eventually you have a bunch of John Waynes playing fast and loose with the rules, eventually they become emboldened, and since the government is famously bad at policing itself, these attitud…

>This is common in all government run systems No, that is not at all true. There are lots of government run systems, like the health care systems in most developed countries, that are just fine. The problem with Pakistan is it has a highly corrupt culture in general and in government in particular. That is no doubt why so many of the airline pilots were able to get hired without a legal licence. Your general claim an…

> crackpot libertarian view that modern societies

Which group, government or 'crackpot libertarians', were responsible for more deaths in the last century? I'll wait. I'm sure if you ask those in Iraq, they'd vastly prefer the US Government was more libertarian (or any NATO government, really). I understand wanting to trade blood for convenience, as long as it's not your blood.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#307

Post by sudosysgen »

colinmhayes wrote: post #221
haram_masala wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an armored convoy is not enough to protect your nuclear weapons, then you have an entirely different problem that needs solving first.

Might be true, but that won't stop Pakistan from developing nuclear weapons.

They've already had them for a few decades.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#308

Post by tux1968 »

FabHK wrote: post #282
tux1968 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. There is lots of room for improvement. Why everyone is so intent on defending the status-quo given its obvious deficiencies is mind boggling.

I find your certainty about something you appear to know nothing about mind boggling. Every crash is a deficiency of sorts, so let’s just tell Airbus to build planes that don’t crash! Easy! Let’s just have peace instead of war! Obvious! It is not sufficient to point out “obvious deficiencies”, one must also point out possible improvements. As other posters (with more patience than I can muster) have pointed out, it i…

> But my main point is that it’s absurd to accuse Airbus of overlooking an obvious improvement without even a cursory understanding of the matter.

Who made such an accusation? The only way you can assume that's my assertion is if you think the UI of an airplane is literally perfect already. If there is room for improvement, which obviously there is, it's not necessarily because anyone was negligent, it's because we're constantly learning and improving.

I find all of your arguments unconvincing and tied to the status quo rather than acknowledging that improvement is possible sometimes even in obvious ways given new information.

Just because there is the potential for poorly thought out improvements, does not mean that every suggested improvement adds a prohibitive level of complexity. You've failed to demonstrate that such a prohibitive level of complexity would be added with my suggested improvement... you've simply asserted it.

On top of everything, you've not provided any credentials showing you know any more about the situation than I do, yet you seem every bit as confident.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#309

Post by 1024core »

wishiwasoutside wrote: post #303
redis_mlc wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it wo…

"in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?

Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#310

Post by dragandj »

baybal2 wrote: post #275
dragandj wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not so sure that nuclear weapons would help in these kinds of regional conflicts against Russia. It’s not that Russia officially invaded Ukraine (although in practice it did), but it stirred up local population (of largely Russian ethnicity) and then gave them logistical support and protection. So, if Ukraine had nuclear weapons, what would it do with it? Strike Russia, who has many more nuclear warheads, and str…

> Strike Russia, who has many more nuclear warheads, and stronger anti-nuclear protection? Yes, what's use of a superweapon if you can't make use of it? From my childhood experience, some times you need to commit without reservations to completely hopeless, no chance fights, as the only hope for a way out. Strong adversaries often don't expect the weak to even attempt to fight back.

The point is that the results of using it would be:

- would the weapons be neutralized in most or all cases by Russia before it reaches the targets? Perhaps yes? I don't know much about that sort of thing.

- it would give a carte blanche to Russia to wipe out Ukraine, which it has the means to do if it comes to total war.

That's why I'm skeptical that nuclear weapons bring more benefits than trouble for smaller players.

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