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The Harm of Studying Abroad

readingthechinadream.com

81–90 of 121 posts

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#81

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

>> First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think.

> This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner, or being in any specific country. It's a university culture, and every university has its own pace of teaching, in China or US.

It seems odd to assume that every University's pace is set independently of every other University. The vast majority of Universities and professors base their workload using other similar Universities as a reference. Either explicitly or implicitly. Some professors choose to make their courses more or less demanding, but even this is done as an adjustment from the reference point. Because of this, norms can vary significantly across different parts of the world.

I've never studied in China, so I can't say whether Chinese Universities really are less demanding. But after living and studying in multiple countries, I've certainly seen that norms do exist, and vary across different parts of the world.

> How hard it is to consciously decide to go to a book store when you are in need of a book?

That's the entire point. It's not hard at all when you consciously think about it and decide to do it. But most of our decisions and thoughts are driven by habits, not conscious thought. For example, it is extremely easy to not waste my time writing pointless comments on HN. And yet, here I am, because this is my habitual response to boredom.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#83
post #7

> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. With time, you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? Too bad. Okay that has to be partially self inflicted. Too many people travel…

Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.

So when's the last time you had someone very foreign, who had difficulties with language and no social context over for beers?

Most people don't hate or even loathe foreigners and certainly not Asians, but social circles everywhere tend to be pretty narrow.

He may have had some nice students or profs invite him on the occasional thing out of social courtesy and genuine interest, but people really far from one another socially are not going to get tons of 'hang time'.

As Uni becomes a little bit more simply 'where you go after high school' and more a social experience, as opposed to being a truly academic experience, I suggest this issue may even be exacerbated.

I don't doubt the social isolation is real for people, but I don't think hostile language is where we need to go.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#84
post #59

> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of studying abroad. > Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More interesting is the o…

> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I…

Yep, from my understanding what you're saying is completely correct, and the treatment of those groups is something the CCP ought to be commended on. The differences are more things like the legal status of things like drugs and prostitution and pornography. Of course whether or not those things _should_ be legal is a matter of opinion, but they certainly are harder to defend.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#85
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I…

[flagged]

_cultural_ genocide which is a very different thing from genocide

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#86
post #84
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I…

Yep, from my understanding what you're saying is completely correct, and the treatment of those groups is something the CCP ought to be commended on. The differences are more things like the legal status of things like drugs and prostitution and pornography. Of course whether or not those things _should_ be legal is a matter of opinion, but they certainly are harder to defend.

Disclaimer: I'm someone in favour of all the things I mentioned being legal, but I imagine if you asked the average person on the street I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them disagreed with me.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#87

From my reading of this, this is just someone who was very isolated due in part to cultural/language barriers. I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very different take. > You sing the praises of whatever it is that your enemy opposes, and you oppose whatever your enemy praises. That screams like someone who feels pushed out and isolated from…

I was a Mexican doing a phd in the uk. I deffinitely felt isolated of the English people per se but the international student community was amazing. You always are "the expat"

But IME that's nothing to do with studying. I had the same experience later while working in Germany

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your reading, it feels like most of his issues were due to very different culture and language. As an European who attended university in four European countries I can attest how enriching and fulfilling those years have been, and how much I have grown. I would strongly recommend studying abroad to anybody who has the chance. Even as an introvert it was easy to make friends.

To me it comes down to the language barrier. Not having a good command of English (or the local language) hinders your ability to integrate with the locals. Learning English for a person from a Western country is way easier than for a Chinese person.

From my experience in the UK it was not. I spoke enough english to write and defend a PHD thesis. Yet I could never "click" with British society... even while being the "friendly mexican" I was just that... and i did want to get more "assimilated " by the culture.

It's a cultural thing, some cultures are more open and welcoming than others.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#89

Very interesting to hear a Chinese person complain about American higher education as too rote, as I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote. Perhaps things look too rote from either side if you're missing the culture-specific subtlety? Perhaps things are too rote on both sides but it's only noticed by those from a different background? Relevant excerpt: "The things you thin…

> I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote.

I've seen both sides. 99% of complaints you read on the internet are written by people who've never been to the country they're complaining about, and whose sum total knowledge consists of a cheap stereotype.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#90
post #66

I must be tone-deaf, because I picked up none of the sinister overtones that other commenters on this thread are detecting. The text I read was amusing and delightful, and I associate it with a genre of writing that takes a bit of common wisdom (studying abroad is good for you) and inverts it. It reminded me of Erasmus's In Praise of Folly. I am sadly ignorant of Chinese literature, but I think the theme is universal…

I agree, and I think the overwhelmingly negative response here perfectly illustrates the post's point. The author is thoughtful and has great, but not perfect English. Because he's foreign, everybody concludes that it's a sinister work of propaganda, and attributes all manner of horrible personality traits to the author on the basis of the tiniest of mistakes.

It's absolutely predictable. I sincerely hope I won't ever have to endure the displeasure of meeting any of these HN commenters in person.

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