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The Harm of Studying Abroad

readingthechinadream.com

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Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#71

Post by jacobolus »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #56
chillacy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The essay reads as satirical to me. Especially the ending line: > My sole desire is that when future generations come of age, they will inherit a mature academic tradition, and will not have to travel such long distances and endure these various discomforts.

Written in 2008. But that says that in 2008, China does not have a mature academic tradition. That's... I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's an interesting admission.

That's true though. The academic tradition in China was substantially dismantled several decades ago, and for decades afterward the focus was on practical fields (say, engineering rather than literature). Academics in China are under much more pressure than in Europe or the US to avoid politically controversial research or advocacy, and for better or worse students are under more pressure to pursue fields with high earning potential instead of those they find personally interesting.

I am sure the Chinese academy will continue to grow and develop dramatically over the next few decades, but it takes generations to rebuild after as big a disruption as the cultural revolution etc.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#72

Post by socrates1998 »

Didn't sound like he really wanted to study in America. That's fine, but if you don't have to do something, then it's harder to get value from it.

I studied abroad because I REALLY wanted to. I was immensely looking forward to traveling, experiencing new customs, learning new ways of thinking and even learning more than the basics of the language.

It was an experience I will value forever.

I think a big difference is that when Americans or Europeans study abroad, they are looking for an experience, when Chinese students (if this guy is to be believed) are looking to pad their resumes.

Same goes for college. If you go to college so you can put it on your resume, then you will hate it. If you go to college looking to learn, make friends and acquire skills, then it will be fantastic.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#73

Post by justicezyx »

The source website [1] of the author is more interesting. It can be translated into "neo-legalism", a reference to the "fa jia (legalism)" in the early Chinese history. Fa jia is a school of thoughts that has a color of modern law & rule-based society system, but it is truly a top-down feudalism system that put its center around the legitimacy of the imperial court.

It does not end here though.

What they meant by the neo-legalism in the website, is actually centered a round a blended Taoism with a shell of a codified rules & laws in the legalism methodology. What historically is called "内圣外王", roughly "holds a saint-like attitude internally, but sternly executes the laws like a master".

The website claims that the capticalism is going to be replaced by such a reinvented system from the ancient tradition.

The whole thing has a strong flare of the historically-bestowed self-righteousness of the conventional Chinese scholar, as often recognized by western scholars on China study.

[1] http://www.xinfajia.net/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#74

Post by glitchc »

powersnail wrote: post #9

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

Lack of friendship is primarily due to a language barrier. The Chinese that obtain a reasonable mastery of vernacular English for daily discourse have no trouble making friends.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#75

Post by jacobolus »

powersnail wrote: post #9

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

>> First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think.

> This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner, or being in any specific country. It's a university culture, and every university has its own pace of teaching, in China or US.

I think it also has substantially to do with reading/linguistic fluency in the language the class is taught in. Many university courses are paced to push the abilities of well prepared, ambitious, and dedicated native speakers.

If you have to read 500+ pages/week (or in some fields, more like 1000+ pages/week), and write a paper on average once every other week, you have to be a very strong reader, with a lot of experience analyzing and constructing linguistic arguments.

A non-native speaker who is a bit uncomfortable with reading might read at half the speed of their fellow students; they could end up spending twice as much time while still comprehending less, and it would be a serious struggle.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#76

Post by munificent »

akfanta wrote: post #59
blaser-waffle wrote: post #2

> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of studying abroad. > Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More interesting is the o…

> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I…

[flagged]

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#77

Post by nnoitra »

_aleph2c_ wrote: post #14

If what he says is true, it also means that the creative thinking at the graduate level of many American STEM degrees has been limited. My friends who are professors in American Universities tell me that in a lot of their courses, there isn't an American student in their whole class; their classes are mostly Chinese. So if their whole group has gone through a hazing-education-process, conducted in a foreign language,…

That's because there's very little incentive for doing a Phd so immigrants do it so it helps their immigration status. It would take someone to be insanely in love in CS to forfeit 300K or so compensation for a Phd.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#78

Post by sien »

bluntfang wrote: post #47
chillacy wrote: post #7

> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. With time, you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? Too bad. Okay that has to be partially self inflicted. Too many people travel…

Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.

Perhaps, but Asian Americans do better than Caucasian Americans in a raft of measures :

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian...

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#79

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jacobolus wrote: post #71
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Written in 2008. But that says that in 2008, China does not have a mature academic tradition. That's... I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's an interesting admission.

That's true though. The academic tradition in China was substantially dismantled several decades ago, and for decades afterward the focus was on practical fields (say, engineering rather than literature). Academics in China are under much more pressure than in Europe or the US to avoid politically controversial research or advocacy, and for better or worse students are under more pressure to pursue fields with high e…

I don't disagree. I just find it surprising that anybody said it.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#80

Post by dragonwriter »

sien wrote: post #78
bluntfang wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.

Perhaps, but Asian Americans do better than Caucasian Americans in a raft of measures : https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian...

There are only two measures there that compare Asian Americans to Caucausian Americans,and both are quite sensitive to being reflective of the high Asian immigration innrceent decades selected for highly educated individuals already qualified for work in highly paid fields, rather than Asians succeeding more from a similar starting point. IOW, they don't do much to cast doubt on racism adversely impacting Asian Americans.
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