Live data from Hacker News

Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

nytimes.com

241–250 of 307 posts

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#241
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (legitimate) argument is that freedom of speech extends to facebook getting to decide what, and in what order, information is displayed on facebook.com. To dictate a chronological order, or to demand that they publish every single thing that is submitted to them, is a restriction of their freedom of editorial expression on their own website .

I don't think the parent is contesting that. It is true that Facebook has a right to moderate the contents posted to their site, but also true that by prioritizing some content they undermine the "neutral platform" objective that they use to justify not moderating the content (beyond extreme situations).

Facebook has the right to moderate, edit, prioritize, deprioritize, delay, republish, voiceover, or whatever-the-hell-else content posted to their site.

My statement about Facebook's right to editorialize is not limited in scope to moderation. Facebook has the right, for example, to hide all posts by a certain ethnic minority group if they so choose, or to publish only racist posts and nothing else, if that were their policy. It's their website.

I think there should be additional regulation restricting this, but only for DMs and perhaps small, private groups, where the platform is serving as a communications tool. Censoring those types of communications is actively harmful to society.

Facebook deciding what is or isn't in your news feed is Facebook's freedom of speech.

Ultimately, I support Facebook "erring" on the side of leaving content up. I would even support free expression restricting regulation regarding their legal ability to censor DMs; that is to say that, when functioning as a person-to-person communications medium, they should not be permitted to arbitrarily suspend accounts or censor messages. When your Facebook account is otherwise suspended, you should still be able to log in and send and receive messages from your contacts. Imagine if the telephone company stopped your ability to send or receive SMS if you said things on the phone that they didn't like!

That said, for the part of Facebook that is closest to "web hosting", it's their show, and their rules. It's entirely up to them if they wish to editorialize in the feed, although I agree it's harmful to society and that the state should educate and train people to avoid Facebook, the same as they do with alcohol or gambling.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you prefer "Ad Boycott of Facebook Kind of Growing"? Or "Ad Boycott of Facebook Growing Slowly"? Or "Ad Boycott of Facebook: The Details" It is growing, the details are accurate in the article, and I can't think of a headline that has zero editorial information in it. If they don't run any story, then they risk the opposite criticism: why didn't you tell us?! You should worry more about the media that philosophica…

"why didn't you tell us?!" Do you actually think anyone would notice if the Times did not publish this article? Couldn't the same thing then be said about any MSM publisher relating to all topics/content? "You should worry more about the media that philosophically rejects the notion of objective reality. " And...there is no such thing as objectivity in media, never was or will be. The act of deciding what stories to…

> Do you actually think anyone would notice if the Times did not publish this article? Couldn't the same thing then be said about any MSM publisher relating to all topics/content?

I would. Because this "news" will eventually get out, and I would wonder why it was not covered by the MSM. I've seen a lot of anecdotal stories about things not being covered in the MSM, so yes, people will wonder why there was no news coverage about a boycott, instigated by prominent civil rights groups like the Anti Defamation League, the NAACP, and supported by well known companies like Patagonia, REI et al against a well known company and platform like Facebook.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a couple. The answer is simple: Money. Facebook pays way above what other tech companies pay (a 6 year of experience senior engineer in Menlo Park can easily make 600k/year). There is also a sense of pride coming from back in the days when Facebook was still seen as a very exclusive and wonderful place to work at.

Not being facetious, but what to the devs do all day to earn that? Their core functionality, Find a Friend, is pathetically limited and naive. Why can't I search for ( cohort of near my age who went to my school ) or ( everyone called Bob who is one or two hops from Alice and lives in Bigville )? Or even search a friend list by some criteria instead of scrolling through 1200 names. Frankly it sucks.

Most devs in bigTechs micro optimize very little things (ie, cogs in the machine). It makes sense only at a scale where those micro-optimization can pay for themselves.

I'm not sure how you stay sane working on those micro-issues though.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#244
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the 2016 election broke the NY Times. They shifted from a mostly neutral, reputable news source to quasi-propaganda fairly quickly.

What exactly is the propaganda part? Can you provide a specific example, so folks have something concrete to agree or disagree with? And, do you mean with their news reporting, as opposed to their editorials?

Here is one example of a broad topic where NYT's bias is very clear - immigration. Articles on this topic over the past year: https://www.google.com/search?q=immigrants+site:nytimes.com&...

What I have observed is that NYT's coverage slants heavily towards supporting immigration, both legal and illegal. For illegal immigration, they run stories which tend to evoke maximum sympathy (DACA, impact on women / young kids / old people etc). Even for a story involving all sorts of people, they will use photos or anecdotes which will evoke stronger sympathies (example: [1]).

Also take a look at the kind of opinion columns they run - you will easily find someone supporting illegal immigration or asylum every few months. But you will rarely see them printing opinions from the other side of this debate, i.e. people opposing illegal immigration.

And this is an obvious slant on a topic where Americans are evenly divided, if not leaning more against illegal immigration [2].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/us/asylum-migrants-mexica...

[2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of whether people have empathy. It's a question of whether they're going to fire you from your job or boycott your business if you aren't actively celebrate the cause de jure in the approved manner.

That's nonsense. No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in. People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired.

> No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in.

I suspect if this were true this letter would not have been needed. http://hillsdalecollegian.com/2020/06/on-the-college-and-sil...

> People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired.

Black Lives Matter, as a movement generally, is riddled with Marxists. I have seen signs from the Marxist wing at every protest in the city, calling for the end of capitalism, free subway rides, and the immediate removal of Donald Trump without recourse to an election.

Marxists sent my family to Siberian labor camps, and I have a beef with them. I expect free NYC subways would be economically inefficient. There are many other parts of BLM to which I object. I object to the charge that silence is violence. I object to the destruction of property, and to the statement that destruction of property is not violence. I object to those who have pulled down certain statues, like Grant and Washington. I object to the march slogan, which I have heard at half a dozen protests: "No cops! No KKK, No Racist USA"; the KKK are more than abstract bogeymen, but are real, and sometimes dangerous, and I have family who have been targeted by persons who I reasonably suspect to be bona fide members, as one of their other objects of hate: Roman Catholics. Perhaps this chant would be powerful in the American south, but I respectfully doubt that the half-white protest crowds of New York City are qualified to know the first thing about such matters. I further object to those who, in the name of BLM, head on to Twitter to solicit allegations of racism and names of people to doxx, harass, and get fired.

All of these have taken place under the banner of Black Lives Matter. Perhaps some of them shouldn't have. Perhaps the brand should be more protected; in what I have witnessed, it's not.

I have not previously raised these matters in any venue whatsoever, because I do not wish to undermine the reform of police impunity underway. My objections are typically not a matter of general interest, and I would not impose on people to subject them to such things. But for the purpose of this conversation right here, that I may rebuke you vigorously, I will freely admit to you: I am opposed to Black Lives Matter. I am opposed to them as a specific reification of needed reforms. I wish to be outside the group of BLM supporters. I have not blackened my profile picture, I have not used the hashtag anywhere in particular.

You suggest this is sufficient to merit firing — or at least, your suggestion of what merits firing is not structured so that I might infer that my position ought to be safe.

How dare you? How dare you presume that you or anyone like you are entitled to pass any judgment on my employment whatsoever? What right have you lot to threaten me, or to threaten anyone, like this? How fortunate for the world that your dreams of ideological tyranny should be thwarted! How fortunate are those of us still sufficiently blessed by liberty with the privilege to ignore those of like persuasion, to dismiss your empty screed, to cast you all down off the high horse of self-righteousness and be rid of your moralizing. Let all people strive to keep you from power. Let us never mistake loyalty for righteousness. Let us work instead to extend such blessings to all the world. (I hear, for instance, that black people often experience barriers which keep them from such blessings. Let us reach out to them in brotherhood.)

I will further add that my CEO is African-American. I am proud of him. He's spoken out about racism in America, giving interviews to major news outlets, penning articles for high-profile publications. I dare not say that I speak for him, yet I would guess that if it you asked him to fire me, showed him what I have written here, that he would rebuke you: for I know he has passed through the fires of ideological scrutiny firsthand, and I think he has experienced personally these forces which your lot aspires to channel — seen how little they care for mercy, or even decency.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#246
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent is contesting that. It is true that Facebook has a right to moderate the contents posted to their site, but also true that by prioritizing some content they undermine the "neutral platform" objective that they use to justify not moderating the content (beyond extreme situations).

Facebook has the right to moderate, edit, prioritize, deprioritize, delay, republish, voiceover, or whatever-the-hell-else content posted to their site. My statement about Facebook's right to editorialize is not limited in scope to moderation. Facebook has the right, for example, to hide all posts by a certain ethnic minority group if they so choose, or to publish only racist posts and nothing else, if that were thei…

I think you've completely missed my point. None of this is about what Facebook has the right to do.

I will try to reiterate as clearly as I can.

1) Facebook is criticized for the content it hosts

2) Facebook claims that it is simply a platform, and that it does not want to moderate, editorialize, or otherwise modify the content as such, erring on allowing content

3) Facebook actively modifies content in terms of how it is displayed, which makes (2) seem like a really stupid argument

Again, none of this is about what they are obligated to do, it's just about the hypocrisy of trying to say you're a content agnostic platform while actively grooming your content. It's made worse by the issue of that grooming prioritizing engagement, which almost always means that the most controversial content is what you see.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#247
post #239
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Squatting + Vandalism != peaceful protest Agreed that vandalism is not peaceful protest. > If a group of people peacefully protest on my lawn, they are not Constitutionally protected to do But occupying a public space (not a private lawn) in protest - what you refer to as squatting - is absolutely peaceful protest. Lafayette Square is not POTUS' private lawn.

> Lafayette Square is not POTUS' private lawn But St Johns church is not a public space, and vandalizing it is not legal. Even in public commons, vandalizing/toppling public statues is currently not legal. Trump's tweets/posts are strictly about reprimanding this behavior. Again, there is a growing orthodoxy that holds that this behavior should not be reprimanded, but tweeting about enforcing those existing laws is w…

> But St Johns church is not a public space

Lafayette Square is a public place, and that is where POTUS cleared peaceful protectors with force, so that he could walk across it for his photo op at the church. If it were an issue of protecting St John's Church property, they could have cleared just that property, and brought the president in with a helicopter. But the whole point was to demonstrate the show of force against the protesters.

You appear to be focusing on St John's Church's private property with the goal of distracting attention from the public place where the actual use of force against peaceful protesters took place: Lafayette Square.

One doesn't need to be a liberal to call out the shamefulness of that incident. In fact the hardly liberal James Mattis did exactly that, as did the other general who was caught in the photo op.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#248
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYT operates on an online subscription model, no?

How much of a percentage of revenue is that subscription model vs ads, and how does that hold up to the historical split?

i heard somewhere it was 60% subscription 40% ad, though I'm not sure.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#249
post #211
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not just better at noticing it. It really is more slanted. Journalism 20-30 years ago was mostly funded on a subscription model. In this model they work hard to maintain their reputation, so that people will trust them as an accurate source of news. Journalism today is mostly funded per click. Which means that the most important thing is a headline that grabs people's attention and causes them to click. The i…

The NYT operates on an online subscription model, no?

Last quarter advertising made up about 27% of their total revenue (digital advertising was 13% of total), according numbers in this recent article - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/business/media/new-york-t...

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#250
post #247
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lafayette Square is not POTUS' private lawn But St Johns church is not a public space, and vandalizing it is not legal. Even in public commons, vandalizing/toppling public statues is currently not legal. Trump's tweets/posts are strictly about reprimanding this behavior. Again, there is a growing orthodoxy that holds that this behavior should not be reprimanded, but tweeting about enforcing those existing laws is w…

> But St Johns church is not a public space Lafayette Square is a public place, and that is where POTUS cleared peaceful protectors with force, so that he could walk across it for his photo op at the church. If it were an issue of protecting St John's Church property, they could have cleared just that property, and brought the president in with a helicopter. But the whole point was to demonstrate the show of force ag…

I think you have that backwards. The "photo op" incident occurred weeks ago, and James Mattis rightfully condemned it.

The current spate of boycotts appear to be in response to Facebook's refusal to remove a post by Trump directly referring to the "Black House Autonomous Zone". That's why the focus is on St. John's church and statues — it's what is currently happening right now. I will include the text of Trump's post:

"There will never be an “Autonomous Zone” in Washington, D.C., as long as I’m your President. If they try they will be met with serious force!"

This has nothing to do with the photo op incident, and the willingness to focus on it distracts attention from the private place where actual vandalism and squatting is currently taking place. It's a valid (if crass) expression of a willingness to enforce the law, no matter how much people may disagree with it.

Post reply on HN