Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing • Hacker News Board

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#121

Post by ForHackernews » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

listenallyall wrote: post #107

mk4p wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you should ask - I just saw this: > You don’t realize the heavy conscious and mental burden that comes with being a Facebook employee until you quit https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1275363680767537154

Probably could replace "Facebook" with just about any company in that sentence. Having to uphold "company values", live by some boss's petty rules, take HR initiatives seriously, etc, is pretty much universally frustrating.

Nah, most companies just want their employees to do their jobs. It's only these Silicon Valley cults that expect everyone to drink the koolaid about "values" and center your personal identity around your job.

If you don't believe this, go get a job at a lumber yard or a warehouse or something.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#122

Post by sneak » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

wayne_skylar wrote: post #109

I find it so funny that Facebook hides behind "freedom of speech" when in fact what they do is the exact opposite. When everything you saw was cronological, you could make that argument. I write a message on my wall and everyone who follows me can see it if they scroll down far enough. Most importantly, the only criteria used was the time it was submitted which I think everyone can agree is fair. By prioritizing cert…

The (legitimate) argument is that freedom of speech extends to facebook getting to decide what, and in what order, information is displayed on facebook.com.

To dictate a chronological order, or to demand that they publish every single thing that is submitted to them, is a restriction of their freedom of editorial expression on their own website.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#123

Post by skewart » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

salimmadjd wrote: post #108

Am I the only person who has a problem with this headline, "Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing" am I overreacting here or others feel the same? For me at the face of it's not incorrect, but it feels to me a certain deliberate wordsmithing is used to create a sense of growing momentum. What we don't know if these advertisers represent 1%, more or less than x% of Facebook's ad revenue. I do understand FB will not pro…

What’s more, the NY Times has a strong business interest in convincing advertisers not to advertise on Facebook. I’m a bit skeptical of anything they publish these days about Facebook, Google, and other companies that could potentially threaten their access to clicks, just given their financial incentives to weaken these companies as much as possible.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#124

Post by _bxg1 » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #104

Enginerrrd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ethics =/= politics and I think it's a pretty universal judgement that Facebook has done some ethically dubious things in the past, and not much has changed from the policies that led them there in the first place.

Okay but ethics isn't universal either. There is no objective moral framework. "Not everybody shares your views" == "Not everybody shares your ethics". Let me try and steel-man this for you: if you believe in classical liberal principles of free speech, then you might probably be "proud" to work at FB, as well as of Zuckerberg's stance. Here's a better articulation of that: https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-ch…

Facebook and the like have directly driven a huge increase in worldwide division and polarization. And faced with that fact they've continued their course full-steam-ahead. I don't know of any moral framework where that isn't a negative for society. Some on the economic-right might argue it isn't Facebook's problem to worry about because something something The Market. But even they wouldn't say the full picture is a good one, and wouldn't deny the logic that working for the company, in practice, ends up contributing to that outcome.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#125

Post by bhupy » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #116

bhupy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay but ethics isn't universal either. There is no objective moral framework. "Not everybody shares your views" == "Not everybody shares your ethics". Let me try and steel-man this for you: if you believe in classical liberal principles of free speech, then you might probably be "proud" to work at FB, as well as of Zuckerberg's stance. Here's a better articulation of that: https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-ch…

Ethics and morals are not the same thing. Morals are not universal. Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard .

> Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard.

Yes, and there are many ethical frameworks. You and I may subscribe to different ethical frameworks, and that's entirely a function of our morals.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#126

Post by nailer » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

tech-historian wrote: post #64

Serious questions: Are the people that work at Facebook proud to work there? What is morale like inside that place? When someone asks you what you do, and you say "I work for Facebook," what is their typical reaction? Not trying to be snarky. I'm genuinely curious how these perceptions/feelings might have changed over the past few years.

In terms of not moderating public conversation, I would /absolutely/ be proud of Facebook's stance here.

Compare this to Twitter, where a similar large amount of political discussion takes place, but mentioning that the law will be enforced is considered a 'threat' whereas actual death threats and doxxing are not.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#127

Post by staticassertion » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

greatwhitenorth wrote: post #120

tech-historian wrote: post #64

Serious questions: Are the people that work at Facebook proud to work there? What is morale like inside that place? When someone asks you what you do, and you say "I work for Facebook," what is their typical reaction? Not trying to be snarky. I'm genuinely curious how these perceptions/feelings might have changed over the past few years.

You can ask this question about most of the for profit businesses. Apple (Foxconn), Amazon(Warehouse issues), Microsoft(ICE), just a few examples. How many of those who are against Facebook are still using Apple products or buying from Amazon. You can't pick and choose your ethics.

> You can't pick and choose your ethics.

Yes you can? I think X is OK, I think Y is not OK. I can even be a hypocrite about it, because X and Y may be fundamentally related, or share a source.

The ethical issues with Facebook could easily be seen as independent from the ethical issues with those other companies.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#128

Post by mintym » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

djohnston wrote: post #76

nyt will never waste an opportunity to paint their usurper as a failing company.. i am highly confident that this will all amount to nothing

It gives them political cover to ban content and act as if they are "responding to pressure" but still "striving to be neutral".

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#129

Post by searchableguy » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #92

searchableguy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you believe those headers have been coerced, and they feel forced to post one? https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267893460423462912 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267895488205869057 Not taking any sides here.

I'm not aware of the who's who in the JavaScript world - is Brandon Dail of considerable influence? Because it looks the same guy asks questions twice, and in your second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence. I didn't see the original post as the user has limited who can see their tweets.

> is Brandon Dail of considerable influence?

Yes, he is from react team.

> Second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence

There are quite few agreeing too though.

I just remember this example because brandon got fired over this since both people worked for facebook. I disagree that there is no pressure to add a BLM banner but that's it.

Re: Ad Boycott of Facebook Keeps Growing

#130

Post by spfjefe » Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

tech-historian wrote: post #64

Serious questions: Are the people that work at Facebook proud to work there? What is morale like inside that place? When someone asks you what you do, and you say "I work for Facebook," what is their typical reaction? Not trying to be snarky. I'm genuinely curious how these perceptions/feelings might have changed over the past few years.

I have quite a few friends who have worked and still do work for Facebook. I used to know someone who worked on their "security" team that truly had some frightening powers re: privacy, but with the excuse that it's ok because of stories of saving some kidnapped child's life, or helping track down someone with terrorist connections because they had Facebook messenger on their phone so they could pinpoint their exact location and report it (along with message history) to the police.

I know a guy who worked on a content moderation team and has been severely psychologically affected as a result. Like, he's not the same guy anymore. But he still works there and doesn't seem to consider taking any other job. I think it's because once you've seen all sorts of horrific images and have knowledge of heinous acts going on in the world after you're put in a position of policing them, you feel like the problem is bigger than yourself and your needs are secondary. It's sad, though.

I've never heard any of the people I know talk negatively about Facebook in any way, especially not a "wow, I can't believe I work for these people." There's always a focus on the good they're doing, and how the good outweighs the bad. After Trump got elected, there was all sorts of talk about how Facebook is bringing people together with feminist and anti-trump groups, ignoring the other facts. When Zuckerberg was testifying to Congress over privacy issues it was all about how he's being misrepresented and Congress doesn't understand the internet.

Only recently have I detected some small dissatisfaction from someone who has worked at FB for 7+ years, but instead of jumping ship entirely they switched to working for a different Facebook owned brand.

But I hear the pay is great, benefits are great, stock options are great, and the Facebook kool-aid is a mighty potent drink.