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You can't tell people anything (2004)

habitatchronicles.com

131–140 of 201 posts

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#131
post #98

People interpret your words in context of an existing framework of understanding. If I tell you "we're adding a button to the help page", you understand that "button" means "software GUI element" and "help page" means "hypetext page on the world wide web". You do not immediately get out needle and thread and start poking holes in paper. The challenge, then, is telling people that the framework itself is wrong. In ord…

Speaking of VR, do you have a favorite headset? Or have you used one that you thought was good?

Discussed in detail here today:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23620374

Short answer: Oculus Quest

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#132
> "What’s going on is that without some kind of direct experience to use as a touchstone, people don’t have the context that gives them a place in their minds to put the things you are telling them. The things you say often don’t stick, and the few things that do stick are often distorted"

I was just thinking about this today when reading about "Petrodollars", Gaddafi, and all the wars and hostilities started with countries that try to sell oil for anything but US dollars. There is a lot of complexities to geo-politics that are far outside the confines of the simple versions that are transmitted over and over again in news and popular culture. When we come across these big complex issues, it's hard to synthesis this new information into understanding, or an extended worldview, because there is nowhere to stick it in the first place. It takes a lot of mental energy to build the scaffold to hold new information. I think the aversion to expending mental energy is one thing that leads to just ignoring these things, or seeking the easy path of conspiracism.

It is the graphic and emotionally compelling part of these stories that my mind tends to be able to hang onto. In the case of Libya, video of the young Tuareg men in now ungoverned southern regions driving their beat up car from one town to the next and being shot at by snipers. Think about the HK or BLM demonstrations. It is often these tactical scenes that are transmitted to us, more than the cultural or political side. I guess the manipulation of these emotional images is just propaganda and is as old as conflict. ("the other side are baby eaters")

Maturation as a critical thinker is a long hard process that can't be done alone. I worry that it is not something that we as societies are generally not well set up to do. With the shift to a tribal, partisan world, where there are more informations comes from privately employed Public relationships specialist, than Journalist working in the public interest, what will be the state of scaffolds in many peoples minds, and will they be able to support being told anything new..

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#133
post #75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. This may be way off in another field, but this is actually frustrating to me as a father in another way: when we watch shows or read books with our child so many of the stories are so far detached from reality as to make me ask, "Why are we asking kids to care about this?" I have particular ire fo…

Similarly, almost all the YA novels involve a transformation from ordinary mortal, perhaps even social outcast, to someone who has superpowers and/or is the special chosen one (and the story is the journey to overcome challenges and believe in yourself). They go way past "everyone is special" into "you're a failure if you don't change the world". Here I am, over 50 and I'm still waiting for my superpowers to kick in.…

I thinks there’s three main reasons for this:

1) It’s boilerplate hero’s journey and that shit works. It’s a tale as old as tales.

2) Looking for agency and power over your life is a theme adolescents connect with easily.

3) Harry Potter was a bonanza. That explains the recent spate of copycats, but the actual format way predates it. I don’t know about you, but I grew up buying Spider Man comics from the rack at the bodega. It’s the same thing.

It also certainly isn’t limited to YA media, and is probably more pernicious when it’s aimed at adults who should theoretically know better. The Matrix is a prime example, but there are plenty more where that came from.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#134
post #66
post #7

I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. I think it's one of the major problems in the entire structure of the educational system... it's all telling people solutions to problems they don't have yet. Sometimes this is just unavoidable; I'm not sure how to turn geography into a problem you have. (I mean, you can fake it, but people's brains…

> I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. This may be way off in another field, but this is actually frustrating to me as a father in another way: when we watch shows or read books with our child so many of the stories are so far detached from reality as to make me ask, "Why are we asking kids to care about this?" I have particular ire fo…

I think mythology is an important metaphorical tool, but I'm inclined to agree with you. Disney movies are engineered to sell, usually by indulging kids' fantasies. One of the big numbers in The Little Mermaid is literally, "I have so many toys, and now I'm in love." It's kid-crack. Kids like candy.

I like Mulan though, and The Lion King. I think those are some very cool movies with very good life lessons.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#135
post #7

I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. I think it's one of the major problems in the entire structure of the educational system... it's all telling people solutions to problems they don't have yet. Sometimes this is just unavoidable; I'm not sure how to turn geography into a problem you have. (I mean, you can fake it, but people's brains…

In education this is called “project based learning”. It can be difficult without a budget and often requires buy-in from administrators, but is definitely a thing.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#136
You really can't tell people anything when they are starting their first business.

You may be able to offer them hard won wisdoms about revenue, cashflow, the nature of what a startup is, why they shouldn't be wasting time on making a logo and why not to hurry to trademark their business name etc etc, but the lights are off.

They'll only come to understand the importance of your advice as they make the mistakes and pay the price - i.e. blowing 3 months of their financial runway getting a logo, website, business cards and trademark, only to go out of business 3 months later because they've run out of cash.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#137
post #66
post #7

I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. I think it's one of the major problems in the entire structure of the educational system... it's all telling people solutions to problems they don't have yet. Sometimes this is just unavoidable; I'm not sure how to turn geography into a problem you have. (I mean, you can fake it, but people's brains…

> I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. This may be way off in another field, but this is actually frustrating to me as a father in another way: when we watch shows or read books with our child so many of the stories are so far detached from reality as to make me ask, "Why are we asking kids to care about this?" I have particular ire fo…

You might like My Little Pony. It is with animals, but it is a lot about how relationships really work.

I am with you on superheroes. They do nice power fantasy, but lack actual tension, because main hero is unrealistically over the top strong. Consequently, the mechanics of "how the world works" are also all wrong.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think stories like this are important. They teach you to take a hypothetical scenario seriously. It teaches people to ask "what if X were true?" and to seriously consider the ramifications. This is a springboard into abstract thinking. Without people taking the hypothetical seriously they will want to deal with concrete things and will have trouble with abstract reasoning. Imagine you were trying to hav…

So if a kid doesn't watch enough superhero/disney/scifi movies they won't understand racism...? I agree that stoking kids' (and adults') imagination is useful and has benefits. But it sounds like you're claiming they literally won't be able to conceptualize anything outside of reality without them.

Why do you take this so literally? If you don't regularly run does that mean you're incapable of running? No, it doesn't. It means that you're not as good at running as you could be if you practiced more. The same applies to this.

If a kid is willing to take hypothetical scenarios seriously in a story I'd be willing to bet money they're more willing to take other hypotheticals seriously too. Moral reasoning tends to require hypothetical scenarios. If the other party isn't willing to engage in them then you can't make an argument based on them.

I'm simply saying that these stories help you take what if scenarios more seriously.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#139
post #26

I completely agree and love the sentiment here, but I'd modify it slightly. What the author is saying is that you can't get a person to go from 0% to 100% understanding just by telling someone. The avatar example is great - you're not going to convince people 100% that avatars are game-changing by telling them once. On the other hand, incremental nudges are possible. e.g. when you tell someone "hey, we're going to ha…

I don't think you are necessarily wrong. But in some way the text also says the exact opposite: That people will understand 0% until they have a magical "Aha" moment by which they will understand 100%.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#140
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often think of this as "it's hard to tell people the solution to a problem they don't have", or don't know they have. This may be way off in another field, but this is actually frustrating to me as a father in another way: when we watch shows or read books with our child so many of the stories are so far detached from reality as to make me ask, "Why are we asking kids to care about this?" I have particular ire fo…

I disagree. I think stories like this are important. They teach you to take a hypothetical scenario seriously. It teaches people to ask "what if X were true?" and to seriously consider the ramifications. This is a springboard into abstract thinking. Without people taking the hypothetical seriously they will want to deal with concrete things and will have trouble with abstract reasoning. Imagine you were trying to hav…

I just dont think disney or superhero story do anything for understanding of racism or history or human relationships.

I mean, they are fun, but seriously.

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