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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#591

Post by aaronblohowiak »

mac01021 wrote: post #580
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a few years ago, I getting a beer after work with a colleague. we had become friends and talked about quite a bit outside of work. As the topic of religion had come up in the past, it was not unusual for us to discuss. He was a devout Christian (some kind of protestant) and I am a self-described "athiest Catholic". At a certain lull in the conversation after a couple beers, he leaned in to me and asked in a hushed to…

It's not _most people_ that I'd. worry about, though.

with 60% of _murders_ going unsolved, do you think the 'deterrent effect' is really preventing the remainder from engaging in antisocial behavior?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#592

Post by jakelazaroff »

treis wrote: post #484
jakelazaroff wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? It's clearly true. The officer's gun remains in its holster until after Brooks fires the Taser — you can tell because his right arm is still vertical. The NYT has a good breakdown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks... And regardless, let's not move the goalposts to consider only the time after Brooks fired the Taser. After all, it's not like that was the first opportunity t…

You said: >He made the decision to draw his gun in the first place already knowing Which is different from the gun being drawn. You can clearly see the officer pass his tazer from his right to left hand and then reach for his gun prior to the tazer shot. >And regardless, it's not like the moment that Brooks fired the Taser was the first opportunity the officer had to calculate how many shots it had left. Having a sec…

> You can clearly see the officer pass his tazer from his right to left hand and then reach for his gun prior to the tazer shot.

Reaching for a holstered handgun and deciding to draw it are two separate things.

> Having a second potentially valid argument doesn't change the accuracy of the one made.

I'm making exactly one argument: the officer who killed Rayshard Brooks did so knowing that the Taser in his hand was useless. You've yet to offer any evidence to the contrary.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#593

Post by DenisM »

Pfhreak wrote: post #573
DenisM wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clicked the last link from your list, see this: The two were already struggling when Levias' friend, a 17-year-old, pushed the officer, and he responded by punching the friend in the face. Is this the sort of thing you consider outrageous?

Outrageous is your word. Have you seen the video? The cop full on decks a woman who gives his arm a light push. It's definitely out of line, he's not trying to defuse the situation, he's grappling another woman and is clearly out of control of the situation. This continues a pattern of excessive force from the dept. From the Justice Department's findings on the SPD: > Our investigation finds repeated uses of excessiv…

The video doesn’t show on my phone. From your description it sounds somewhat excessive, but not outlandishly so.

Also I find it odd that decade-old events are being brought up. Yes, it’s pretty much a recorded fact that excessive force was used back then. DOJ forced the the SPD through a reform program, the result of that program should be judged to decide what if anything needs to be done at SPD. Otherwise it’s like this:

  SPD did bad things in 2010, they must reform!
  Ok. SPD Does reforms 2010-2020
  SPD did bad things in 2010, defund!
Every time a story predating consent decree comes up I interpret it as lack of newer stories, hence I conclude the reforms worked well.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#594

Post by hef19898 »

pnako wrote: post #554
hef19898 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, all of these places I saw portrait as such in media, mostly conservative to right leaning ones in Europe, or FOX news, turned out to be no no-go areas in reality. Using footage from demonstrations that got out of hand, civil unrest at one point and overblown as well as wrongly cited numbers are all that is to that. And yes, in Europe there is no such thing as no-go zone where police don't go and all you have is a…

This is a speech on Islamic separatism in France, by current President Macron (in French, obviously): https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2020/02/18/proteger-le... He is using multiple times the expression "quartiers de reconquête républicaine" ("suburbs for the Republic to re-conquer"). If the President of a country considers he needs to reconquer parts of his own country, don't you think there is a bit of a probl…

I think you are missing very important nuance there. But since you are so familiar with French politics, you will figure it out.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#595

Post by shitgoose »

morganw wrote: post #459
vidarh wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest thing: * Change rules of engagement for police to emphasise de-escalation when possible and gradual escalation when absolutely necessary. E.g. in the UK police won't even have firearms on them most of the time unless specifically called to deal with a suspected incident involving weapons, but even if they do, the focus tends to be on de-escalation and waiting the situation out if possible (e.g. someone sa…

> gradual escalation Part of the reason for the quick escalation is that (American) cops are taught things like the Tueller Drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8 that claims that an attacker can close 21 feet in 1500 milliseconds and stab a victim so many times that even a fast ambulance response won't save him from bleeding out. This idea means the cop has to unholster a pistol as soon as any sign of non…

The video you quoted clearly articulates the preference for getting out of the way of the attacker, keeping the distance and avoiding the direct confrontation. Unholstering the pistol does not imply an indiscriminate shooting. The video is suggesting a reasonable course of action in an emergency situation.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#596

Post by arbitrary_name »

irjustin wrote: post #589
flarg wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

> There are no bad apples here I don't understand. You're saying that individual police members are not at fault for their actions? That the police institution is rotten (barrel) but stops at the individual officer (apple)? I 100% agree that the barrel is rotten, but there are plenty of bad individuals as a result of the barrel being rotten for so long. A way to test this, change the 'barrel' and see which 'apples' s…

No, the parent is saying that calling police criminals masks the fundamental twisted nature of the justice system. Judging by their words, they condemn the police as criminals, but also condemn a 'justice' system that allows their deeds to remain legal. The barrel is rotten, the apples are rotten, so let's throw it all out and try again, is how I interpret their statement.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#598

Post by irjustin »

arbitrary_name wrote: post #596
irjustin wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no bad apples here I don't understand. You're saying that individual police members are not at fault for their actions? That the police institution is rotten (barrel) but stops at the individual officer (apple)? I 100% agree that the barrel is rotten, but there are plenty of bad individuals as a result of the barrel being rotten for so long. A way to test this, change the 'barrel' and see which 'apples' s…

No, the parent is saying that calling police criminals masks the fundamental twisted nature of the justice system. Judging by their words, they condemn the police as criminals, but also condemn a 'justice' system that allows their deeds to remain legal. The barrel is rotten, the apples are rotten, so let's throw it all out and try again, is how I interpret their statement.

I mean you and I are saying the same thing it sounds like, but that sounds decidedly different than what the comment I was replying to was saying.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#599

Post by blub »

vidarh wrote: post #478
blub wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the officer was calm and professional I don't know what more you want from them. It's not the job of the police to hold the hands of every paranoid individual and shush them back to a state of tranquility. Is Theresa May some sort of authority on policing that her name keeps being mentioned here? As an external observer it seems that she was a complete failure at everything during her tenure, surely there's someon…

> If the officer was calm and professional I don't know what more you want from them. I said calm, not professional. I consider his failure to notice her distress and panic to make him totally unsuited to work with the public in pretty much any capacity. It was blatantly obvious that she was in distress. Had he seen someone acting like that towards someone not a police officer, he'd have run to assist in what would h…

You already had a huge scandal in the UK with the police being afraid to break pedophile rings in several cities because they thought they'd be accused of racism. Condemning them for being calm, but not impossibly professional while dealing with paranoid people will surely motivate them even more and ensure maximum efficiency. Comparing them in a critical way with the US police which is regularly killing people likewise.

And if anyone arguing against the approach you support is apparently ignorant or provoking your disgust, I think I'd rather let you focus on fighting this good fight and dealing with its Brexit consequence.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#600

Post by mcny »

washadjeffmad wrote: post #576
thayne wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. Many of these actions are illegal, sometimes even unconstitutional. There may be other laws that make it difficult, or impossible to actually enforce laws against police brutality, but that doesn't change the fact that police officers are breaking the law.

'Criminals' is better be read as enemies or threats. It's used as a catch-all term for people who would do you and your loved ones harm without remorse. If the tables were turned and the police were no longer the servants of the white community, how might that look? Patrol cars driving around suburbs at night blasting sirens then arresting people who came out to complain. Harassing middle class white dads mowing thei…

I think we know the answer. Look at the response to the opioid crisis versus the “war on drugs”.
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