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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a poor (and incidentally very white) area myself, I understand the sentiment behind 'defund the police', but being comfortably middle class now, I also recognize it's something of a nonstarter with people who don't have that experience. I prefer 'Police Out Of Poor Neighborhoods'. Police actually add value in rich neighborhoods (maybe by definition), and it's got a humorous acronym. Edit: And police are m…

I'm sympathetic to the idea that neighborhoods have a right not to be policed if they don't want to. But historically, the alternative to effective policing hasn't been peace and harmony; it's been protection rackets and violent mobs. I think we need to have some confidence that we're not plunging cities back to the crime rates of the 90s before we go down that route.

That's a fair concern. I would go beyond your initial statement though, and say that if neighborhoods don't want to be policed it's likely they know their own interests better than anyone else. Some police departments do a good job even in bad neighborhoods; others... seem to exacerbate the existing problems. I can think of no better litmus test than what the residents themselves think.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#512
post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police.

Black people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 209

Black people murdered by civilians (of any race) in 2018 [2]: 7,407

White people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 399

White people murdered by civilians in 2018 [2]: 6088

Aren’t criminals a greater threat than police for both black and white peoples? Of course this isn’t the whole picture of what interactions with police look like, but if you are scared for your children’s lives, criminals seem to be a much greater threat regardless of race.

> the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals

This does not seem to be even remotely correct. Am I missing something?

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#513
post #481
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

George Zimmerman was not a police officer

George Zimmerman was part of neighborhood watch, what do you think will replace police?

> what do you think will replace police?

Honestly? My fear is that governments will privatize policing. Because that's the policy that both parties can agree on / take bribes from.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#514
post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

> The police said a group of teenage boys that night had punched and kicked another teenager at a nearby playground and stolen his cellphone. The teen flagged down an officer and was driven around the neighborhood looking for the boys. He pointed out a group, and police descended from different directions. One car sped against traffic until it hit a kid; the boy slid over the hood, hit the ground, and then popped up and ran away along with the others.

This bit is child abuse? Or the bit where the cops took some suspects in for questioning?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#515
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of any psychological label, the woman is clearly panicking, and the panic is caused by the police interaction. Being afraid and panicking is not illegal. If the police wanted to do this differently, they could issue a ticket for inspection, throw it in the car, and move on with their day. But instead they chose to get in a power struggle.

Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal.

> Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal.

I'm fairly sure the concept of a police constable giving a member of the public a "lawful order" doesn't exist in UK law. There are laws that give the police discretion to do things in particular situations, but no blanket ability to issue orders.

And thankfully, illegality is determined by the courts on the basis of evidence and circumstance, not the police.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#516
post #475
post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I just don't get it. The number of unarmed black men shot by police across the entire US in 2019 was 14. [0] How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest? Also, do people actually think the police generally and on average does more harm than good as to request abolishing it? [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

To address your first point, there're a constellation of relevant answers.

1. Most people who dislike or distrust the police don't actually trust those numbers. There are decades worth of documented evidence of police lying about people carrying weapons, and sometimes even carrying weapons to plant on people they kill. So from the start, a lot of us think that number is an undercount, possibly by a dramatic degree.

2. Even among the people who are armed who are shot by police, there are people who weren't doing anything wrong who were still shot. The most recent high profile version of this was Philando Castile. Technically, he was armed when he was shot, but when he was killed, he had already informed the police about his licensed, legal firearm and was moving slowly towards the glove compartment, as instructed by an officer, to retrieve his registration. So it's not just shootings of unarmed people.

3. Police don't just shoot people to death. George Floyd was not shot; Derek Chauvin kneeled on his neck for just under nine minutes. Eric Garner was not shot; Daniel Panteleo choked him to death with an illegal chokehold. Adam Trammell was not shot; he was hit with a Taser, 18 times, while in the shower and experiencing mental issues, and it caused his heart to stop. Sandra Bland was not shot; she supposedly hung herself with a plastic grocery bag in her cell after being arrested as a result of a pretextual traffic stop. This list could go much, much longer. Only looking at shooting deaths artificially constrains the number of people police kill in a very deceptive way.

4. There are so very many other ways that police can make your life absolutely miserable without shooting or killing you. I am not Black, and so I have been spared many of these experiences, but of my Black friends and family, I can tell you this: every single one of them has had police harass them for absurdly minor issues, or sometimes no issue at all. A number of them have had a police officer point a gun at them. Almost all of them have been at some point unofficially detained for some length of time. Some of them have been arrested and then eventually released without charges. All of them who drive get pulled over at least a few times per year, without fail. These are mostly middle- or upper-middle-class professionals. They live all over the United States, in cities and towns, in places with large Black populations and small Black populations, and yet their experiences all share a commonality that is terrifying when you pull back even a little bit and look at them as a pattern.

5. But maybe this should have been #1...what do you think is a reasonable number of shootings of unarmed people? Personally, I think that number is zero, so even "just 14" is absolutely grounds for extreme anger, even if you want to ignore my first four points. I don't think the police, people who are given special dispensation and training to use violence in the name of the state, should ever shoot and kill an unarmed person. I actually think any number of deaths caused by police is too many deaths. In every situation, they are the people with the most training. They are (ultimately) the best-armed. I recognize that, in a country with as many guns as the US, maybe the police will have to kill some small number of people per year, but I think every time they do, that shooting should be heavily scrutinized. We give them these weapons and powers so they can protect people, even people who commit crimes, and if they have to kill someone, they have failed to protect that person.

I hope those points answer your first question, and start to explain the answer to your second question. In response to that, though, I would first ask what you've read about police abolition so far.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#517
post #475
post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I just don't get it. The number of unarmed black men shot by police across the entire US in 2019 was 14. [0] How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest? Also, do people actually think the police generally and on average does more harm than good as to request abolishing it? [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

I can only speak for myself but I think many people would agree there is a 'sweet spot' which represents the total police per capita with social problems developing as we get away from that ratio. I also think that this number is lower the lower the per-capita GDP of an area.

'defund the police' as I think of it isn't about defunding completely, but recognising that we are way off on the 'too many police per capita' side of the scale, possibly because poor neighborhoods are getting a police presence closer to the 'sweet spot' of rich neighborhoods.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#518
post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Coming from a poor (and incidentally very white) area myself, I understand the sentiment behind 'defund the police', but being comfortably middle class now, I also recognize it's something of a nonstarter with people who don't have that experience. I prefer 'Police Out Of Poor Neighborhoods'. Police actually add value in rich neighborhoods (maybe by definition), and it's got a humorous acronym. Edit: And police are m…

Hearing from someone who’s lived in both environments is interesting.

The empathy exercise for those of us in privileged neighborhoods is to imagine: How toxic must the dynamic be for entire communities to feel less safe with police and want them out altogether?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#519
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, how can we be more like Italy?

It's not just Italy... the entirety of the European continent sets a great example, even acknowledging the corruption that still takes place. The question to the US is: how can they become less insular and more open to ways of living that aren't strictly 'American'? You would think the constitution is now set in stone: societal progression is at a complete halt after committing to a few rules 200 or so years ago. And…

It's honestly even worse than that in some ways, because we were still pretty actively adding to/changing the rules as recently as the late 1960s, and then we just kinda...stopped.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bear in mind she was stopped because the car she was in had (illegally) tinted front windows. From the article linked in the parent's post: "Court documents later established they were within the legal limit." There was no need for the police to use violent force against this terrified woman, but they did it anyway.

Yes well done. How do you think police determine if they're in limit or not. They test them. She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot.

Here in the UK the police can issue "a producer" - it's effectively a caution to attend a police station and provide paperwork for something within 7 days. It's usually issued for things like broken lights, worn tyres, etc. You get a form from the officer, get the problem fixed, the mechanic stamps the form, and then you take it to a police station to show you fixed the problem. If you don't show up the police come to your house and arrest you.

They could have given her one of those saying take the paperwork for the windows to the police station any time in the next week. She could have taken a friend with her if she's nervous.

Violence is never the answer in a situation like that. The police officer was entirely wrong.

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