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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#291

Post by christiansakai »

umvi wrote: post #167
christiansakai wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you don't perform well on interviews then why expect we hand the job to you? These Indians, Chinese, Russians, Brazilian developers are more willing to grind Leetcode and study until insanity (solving 300 Leetcode problems is not uncommon) and will kill majority of interviews out there. They came here to study hard, from 3rd world countries, and they did it. Study hard, work hard, be smart, and we welcome you…

Sure, but when the interviewer is foreign and speaks broken or thickly-accented English that is difficult to understand, I'm going to be disadvantaged (all other things being equal) compared to my H1B competitors who can be chums with the interviewer and reminisce in their mother tongue. It's a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Well, this strikes to me as more of an excuse.

But even if not. Solution is simple: you reapply.

Then apply again then again and again. One of those days you’ll hit non broken English interviewer, and you’ll realize whether you are actually good enough or you still need to work and study harder.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#292

Post by geebee »

foota wrote: post #124
throwawaygh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, we should just enforce the original intent of the H1B. 1. Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines, and Justice should be given a real budget for running these investigations as a matter of course. And the burden of proof to demonstrate you needed to import labor should be pretty high. If you don't do this, then H1B abuse will happen. 2. Compani…

Personally, I don't think it matters much. So what if we allow more software engineers from other countries? We haven't done anything special to deserve a job more than they have. My only concerns with it are about their well-being and freedom under the current system.

So what if we allow more software engineers from other countries?

We do! The US takes about 1.2 million immigrants legally into the country every year, and they are welcome to become software engineers.

Now, if you ask "so what if we create a visa so that high tech employers can bestow, control, and revoke the US residency rights of people who work in a few narrow fields, including software engineering", I can take a crack at explaining how this can lead to harmful market distortions, to say nothing of labor and basic human rights abuses.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#293

Post by blisseyGo »

tartoran wrote: post #244
jsnenl52882hehd wrote: post #115

I see a lot of comments that miss the point. H1B visas have their problems and the system could be greatly improved by reforms. But that is not the issue. We are talking about suspension of ALL H1Bs and J visas! Whatever you feel about the problems with the current system, it is a net positive for the US. It has some pernicious negative effects, but ultimately our economy benefits more by being able to draw and integ…

It’s obvious Trump did it for votes. Regardless, and hope Trump will be wiped out in November, H1-B needs to be looked at and fixed up. It hurts too many people and advantages too many corporations.

So if he hadn't done something to fix it right now when 40 million are unemployed, everyone would blame him. But since he did something to fix it, you say "Trump did it for votes". You are unwilling to give him any win.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#294

Post by blisseyGo »

thomaspaine wrote: post #118

ITT: People criticizing the H1B program for reasons that have nothing to do with why it was suspended, or considering the fate of people/families who are already here on H1Bs. This is a pretty obvious move by the administration to discourage immigration, in any form. Could the H1B system be more equitable to workers, more efficient, less confusing, etc? Absolutely. But suspending H1Bs and green card applications like…

> This is a pretty obvious move by the administration to discourage immigration, in any form.

I have many immigrant friends and families who want this to happen. The admin has said it many times - "legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad". Yet people believe whatever lies media tells them. At a time when 40 million are unemployed, importing more H1Bs is asinine.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#296

Post by LatteLazy »

Whatever people think of H1B visas (and I'm generally very critical of these programs), since work from home is the new normal, will there be a drop in demand for visas? If Facebook have 9 engineers in an office, it makes sense to get the 10th into the country to join them. If 7 of those 9 work from home on any given day, does it really matter if the 10th is in ?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#297

Post by throwmehaweh »

jsnenl52882hehd wrote: post #115

I see a lot of comments that miss the point. H1B visas have their problems and the system could be greatly improved by reforms. But that is not the issue. We are talking about suspension of ALL H1Bs and J visas! Whatever you feel about the problems with the current system, it is a net positive for the US. It has some pernicious negative effects, but ultimately our economy benefits more by being able to draw and integ…

> Please do not buy into the hype that this is the first step toward reform.

Where in the official proclamation does it say that it's a first step towards reform?

Answer: It doesn't. Rather it lays out exactly _why_ they're doing it to address unprecedented surge in unemployment.

"American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers.

For example, between February and April of 2020, more than 17 million United States jobs were lost in industries in which employers are seeking to fill worker positions tied to H-2B nonimmigrant visas. During this same period, more than 20 million United States workers lost their jobs in key industries where employers are currently requesting H-1B and L workers to fill positions. Also, the May unemployment rate for young Americans, who compete with certain J nonimmigrant visa applicants, has been particularly high — 29.9 percent for 16 19 year olds, and 23.2 percent for the 20-24 year old group. The entry of additional workers through the H-1B, H-2B, J, and L nonimmigrant visa programs, therefore, presents a significant threat to employment opportunities for Americans affected by the extraordinary economic disruptions caused by the COVID-19 outbreak."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#298

Post by geebee »

Daishiman wrote: post #21
Supermancho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

This is really not true. If you do hiring in tech, just finding qualified candidates is a long, arduous process way before even talking about compensation. There's a hell of a lot of problems with hiring practices worldwide, but qualified software engineers are not abundant.

"If compensation were higher, qualified software engineers would be more abundant."

Supply and demand isn't just about what's out there right now, it's about elasticity of both curves. When prices rise, supply increases, and demand decreases.

What you've said indicates that prices are so low that demand is very high, and supply is very low.

Yes, it does take a while, in some fields, for supply to ramp up - but bidding wars for the existing supply are part of the mechanism that increases the prices and signals to people with choice that software engineering (as opposed to, say, finance or corporate law) is the way to go.

There's a pretty strong case to be made the the H1B is specifically designed to create a population of software engineers who are not allowed to respond to market signals that would cause them to stop being software engineers in order to do something else (or perhaps not become a software engineer in the first place).

So back the the original question - compensation. What compensation package were you offering to compete for those rare and highly valuable software engineers you wanted to hire?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#299

Post by throwmehaweh »

justapassenger wrote: post #210

Wow, amount of discrimination in the comments here reminds of facebook political discussions. It's basically "I've once worked for a company with H1B, and it was a scam. Ergo all H1Bs are scam, should be eliminated ASAP, and they should go back to their own country!". Sadly, progressives and tolerance ends when it's touching your wallet.

The proclamation isn't even about ending H1B/H2B/J/L, it specifically says that it is to address the economic laborforce risk brought on by pandemic (thus it has expiration date).

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#300

Post by LatteLazy »

andrenotgiant wrote: post #3

My news and social media feeds are almost universally negative about this. Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it?

I think most people view this as trump vs not-trump. Also, Some people are antiimmigrant in general. That's their right though I don't agree with either position.

I am anti these anti these "skilled/shortage" programs so I can play devil's advocate if you want to understand the position?

My plumber is protected from immigrants trying to "steal" "his" job and I gave to pay him more as a result. But I am a high skilled worker. So my employer can get a skilled visa to replace me. That means my wages etc are depressed. So I am being punished for working hard to upskill and investing and taking the time to find and master a shortage subject. Meanwhile the guys too busy drinking to finish high-school get a monopoly on low skilled positions. What sort of logic is that?

Also, is it morally right to tempt over skilled workers from less developed countries? One reason there are so few doctors in Africa is because they can come here with a bit of work once they graduate. So we generate a perpetual brain drain. A doctor who saves lives in a poor country will come here to do boob jobs and tummy tucks because its nicer here and who doesn't want 100k a year for a 9-5?

I personally don't think there is a "right" answer to how to run an immigration system. But the current system (these visas included) is very corrupt as far as I can tell. So a hit from the (stupid dumb) trump hammer isn't the worst thing, the machine doesnt work anyway imho.

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