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The End of OS X

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Re: The End of OS X

#181

Post by sailingparrot »

oneplane wrote: post #162
fsflover wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the hardware or software yourself is not the point. The point is the monopoly of the manufacturer to repair and modify with huge negative consequences. The lack of right to modify the software leads to unjust power over users [0,1], while the lack of ability to repair hardware leads to unreasonable repair prices, monopoly and environmental damage [2]. [0] https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ [1] https://www.gn…

No, that isn't the point either. The point is happy users, and there will always be some unhappy users because they wanted to do something that isn't supported or actively barred. Throwing in words like 'right' and 'unjust' helps in movements and call to action etc, but in this context it's about someone turning on their device, doing some work, and turning it off again.

Considering the environmental damages that this causes it should indeed be a right.

Re: The End of OS X

#182

Post by oneplane »

sailingparrot wrote: post #174
crystaln wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer and power user. I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. Unix with good design is exactly what I want from my OS. Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this, although I imagine there are a tiny fraction of users who would and you may be among them.

> I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this If you personnaly care a little bit about the environment there is a pretty evident reason why being able to swap a single piece of hardware is better than replacing the whole unit because everything is soldered together. Right to repair would also mean that once your device goes out of guarantee you would have more options to get your device rep…

You assume that people have to throw away millions of laptops, but his comment (and mine) refer to the fact that a recent laptop works fine for 6+ years as-is. The lifecycle doesn't shorten but the need to toy with the innards has gone away for a lot of people.

Re: The End of OS X

#183

Post by Jtsummers »

sudosysgen wrote: post #173
pjmlp wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they do, otherwise selling desktop software to Linux users would actually be profitable.

Selling desktop software to Linux users is only unprofitable because it often sucks and when it doesn't the market share isn't there. Have you ever seen anyone actually pay for Windows or Mac OS? No? right.

macOS is free and has been for a long time, though obviously there are issues with getting it running on non-Apple hardware.

Most people do purchase Windows, it's just that the license is included in their hardware purchase.

Re: The End of OS X

#184

Post by oneplane »

oneplane wrote: post #162
fsflover wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the hardware or software yourself is not the point. The point is the monopoly of the manufacturer to repair and modify with huge negative consequences. The lack of right to modify the software leads to unjust power over users [0,1], while the lack of ability to repair hardware leads to unreasonable repair prices, monopoly and environmental damage [2]. [0] https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ [1] https://www.gn…

No, that isn't the point either. The point is happy users, and there will always be some unhappy users because they wanted to do something that isn't supported or actively barred. Throwing in words like 'right' and 'unjust' helps in movements and call to action etc, but in this context it's about someone turning on their device, doing some work, and turning it off again.

Since I can't reply to the replies, I'll reply to myself:

All of those points are fine, but they are points separate from a user using a device.

If you want it for environmental reasons, say that. If you want it for freedom, say that. Both are valid reasons but don't have anything to do with someone using their machine, unless that 'usage' mains doing stuff with the insides. And before someone jumps in to tell that that is the main activity: great, but most people buy those machines to do work that doesn't entail opening it up.

Re: The End of OS X

#185

Post by bragh »

mhaberl wrote: post #116
parasubvert wrote: post #84

I personally think that the MacBook Pro 16 inch is the world’s best laptop, and look forward to see what the next generations can do. But the whole point has been MacOS. I’m not sure what to think of the changes. If they stabilize the mess that was Catalina, then they’re doing the right things, even with the increased iOS-ification of the Mac. If they just slap more Windows 8 style touch gloss on deep and unresolvabl…

I don't think that (most) Linux users see "free" as the main reason for using Linux. Personally if Linux had a price tag, and Windows were free I would still be a Linux user.

That is true. If I put it into monetary terms, I would gladly pay 50 EUR per month to have an operating system that did the following:

- UNIX command line integration and generally following UNIX philosophy

- Docker integration working out of the box

- no spying on me

- fractional scaling support

- Nvidia drivers support (for gaming)

Running Windows 10, Ubuntu 20.04, Mac OS Mojave and Mac OS Catalina on different computers because of reasons and all of them lack something.

Re: The End of OS X

#186

Post by xigency »

crystaln wrote: post #123
lordleft wrote: post #64

I've looked at the trajectory of Apple these past few years with mounting bitter-sweetness. At its best, MacOS really felt like the best of Unix combined with the consumer focus alluded to in the article. I still adore the craftsmanship of the latest Macbooks, but my 2015 Macbook felt like the apex of Mac's design. It was the kind of device that was such a pleasure to develop on. You could leverage the power of Unix…

I am a developer and power user. I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. Unix with good design is exactly what I want from my OS. Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this, although I imagine there are a tiny fraction of users who would and you may be among them.

> I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple.

You are happy with the sluggishness in Catalina from security checks over the network before running applications?

> Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this

The cost of repair is higher because independent shops cannot repair the boards anymore or recover data when your storage, memory, and everything else is soldered directly to the board.

I don't doubt that you enjoy the platform, but I would be hard pressed to say that I would be happy with everything from any tech company.

Re: The End of OS X

#187

Post by tgv »

LockAndLol wrote: post #177

Wait... so in a few updates Macbooks will be locked down like iPhones without a possiblity for "sideloading" ?

I hope not. In the presentation they mentioned homebrew, so I suppose that's something.

Re: The End of OS X

#188

Post by sudosysgen »

defnotashton2 wrote: post #101
peternicky wrote: post #33

I’ve been unhappy with macOS and Apple for the past few years and in January switched back to developing on a windows PC. I could not be happier with that decision and with the “roadmap” Apple provided yesterday, I expect it will be a long time before I go back to macOS, if ever.

I don't understand how you can get anything done without fighting windows nonsense proprietary tools.

I've had to help people in my classes fight Apple nonsense proprietary tools because no one could understand why Apple won't let you open a file using your own code. If there wasn't anyone there that understood the issue (and that was almost the case) they'd have to use Windows.

Trust me, macOS is much worse on that front than Windows is. At least on Windows if you have issues with your OneDrive account folders won't start disappearing from your Desktop.

Re: The End of OS X

#189

Post by PopeDotNinja »

lordleft wrote: post #64

I've looked at the trajectory of Apple these past few years with mounting bitter-sweetness. At its best, MacOS really felt like the best of Unix combined with the consumer focus alluded to in the article. I still adore the craftsmanship of the latest Macbooks, but my 2015 Macbook felt like the apex of Mac's design. It was the kind of device that was such a pleasure to develop on. You could leverage the power of Unix…

I came to Mac because copy/pasta into a Windows CMD terminal is/was abysmal in 2010. I didn't know about Powershell at the time, so you don't know if that would have made life nicer.

The other reason I switched was because all of my developer friends knew nothing about Windows, and getting stuck on a maybe Windows problem meant I had to fend for myself when I needed help the most.

Re: The End of OS X

#190

Post by pmelendez »

sudosysgen wrote: post #166
parasubvert wrote: post #84

I personally think that the MacBook Pro 16 inch is the world’s best laptop, and look forward to see what the next generations can do. But the whole point has been MacOS. I’m not sure what to think of the changes. If they stabilize the mess that was Catalina, then they’re doing the right things, even with the increased iOS-ification of the Mac. If they just slap more Windows 8 style touch gloss on deep and unresolvabl…

­>inux is only free if your time has no value. I use it as a server OS plenty, but don’t really need it on my desktop. To me this means "I don't know how to get Ubuntu working". Even Arch Linux requires less maintenance for me than my 2013 Macbook Pro did. As soon as you get the setup over with correctly you never have an issue, unless you can't get set it up correctly. Windows is nice when everything works, and if y…

> the setup over with correctly you never have an issue, unless you can't get set it up correctly.

Eh... I don't know about that. I still have problems with GPU drivers when updating Ubuntu (and I don't think that's significantly different for other distros)

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