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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#311

Post by naasking »

Invictus0 wrote: post #262
jeffdavis wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…

> Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. I'm having a hard time figuring out the truth on this particular point. I've seen conflicting reports, such as this study from a black Harvard economics professor which found no racial bias [0]. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evi...

There are dozens of studies, so don't take just one as "the truth". For instance, here's one that was published last week:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550620916071

The overall trend appears to be that racial minorities can expect more violence and shootings from the police, even though quantifying the exact numbers is difficult and subject to contextual considerations.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#312

Post by bradly »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #284
bradly wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Black or white statistically you are far more likely to be killed (or assaulted) by non-police Of the same race as you. That really doesn't matter that much. If a stranger assaults someone and a police office assaults someone, those are not equal. The stranger can be tried and convicted, but the police officer not as easily if at all. Also the stranger is a stranger, while the police officer I pay for and exists to…

> That really doesn't matter that much. I assure you it matters to the victims and their families. And I don’t disagree about the morality of police abusing their powers...but a death is a death and a tragedy is a tragedy. No one is celebrating the death of their loved one no matter what the killers skin color or occupation. > That is so much worse than a stranger doing those things. Again it’s not like the victim of…

> I assure you it matters to the victims and their families.

Your assurance is no different than my opinion. You are speaking for victims just as I am, but I've been hurt by people I trust and I've been hurt by strangers. They aren't equal to me and I don't think I'm alone in that.

> Again it’s not like the victim of a sexual assault is saying thank god I was rapped by a non-officer.

If you think that is what I was trying to imply then I must have severely mis-worded my previous comment.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#313

Post by jakelazaroff »

jeffdavis wrote: post #44
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I looked at the numbers in another comment[1], and it seems that for every one black person killed by police (justifiably or not), over 20 black people are murdered by other blacks. So either there's something wrong with my analysis, or the fear of police is somewhat misplaced. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579467

What about non–lethal violence? What about racial profiling, e.g. "stop and frisk" and "driving while black"? What about bail and sentencing disparities? The fear of the police extends far beyond murder.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#314

Post by blub »

vidarh wrote: post #273
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

We recently had a case in the UK where a prominent (as in winning the British Empire Medal for her services to nursing prominent) nurse was stopped by police, and was too scared to get out of the car. When she told the police this, their response was "I don’t believe you because you’re talking to police officers." She ended up being arrested for obstruction because they kept failing to understand that her reluctance…

Unless one lives in Mexico, where the police assassinate people regularly, being terrified of the police - especially in Europe - doesn't fly as an excuse.

This is the fault of the media which is fishing for clicks and demonizing the police to the point that people are becoming paranoid.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#315

Post by Anechoic »

jeffdavis wrote: post #241
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x

The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers.

It's not just about getting killed - it's about getting unfairly fined, arrested, beaten, jailed, and so on. From my own life experience, the fear is warranted.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#316

Post by SuoDuanDao »

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Coming from a poor (and incidentally very white) area myself, I understand the sentiment behind 'defund the police', but being comfortably middle class now, I also recognize it's something of a nonstarter with people who don't have that experience.

I prefer 'Police Out Of Poor Neighborhoods'. Police actually add value in rich neighborhoods (maybe by definition), and it's got a humorous acronym.

Edit: And police are much less likely to be shot at in rich neighborhoods. It's really win-win-win.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#317

Post by dragonwriter »

corebit wrote: post #252
Pfhreak wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, this is what police were in the Northeast US. (In the South, police trace their heritage to slave patrols. I'm sure they would argue that these patrols were also just defending property. Gross.) Landowners and merchants hired private police to watch over their holdings. Over time, they convinced locals that it would be in the public good if the guards they hired were paid for by everyone. In the 1850s,…

It's become popular to regurgitate that bit about police and slave patrols but it has no real basis in reality. That isn't to say that there isn't some example of a slave patrol that was pressed into service as police, but Police are a concept that all of America inherited from the English roots of our governments.

> but Police are a concept that all of America inherited from the English roots of our governments.

No, they aren't. Because police weren't a thing in England when America split off from those roots.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#318

Post by anoonmoose »

asjw wrote: post #306
dragonwriter wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police They are both worried about criminals. The fact that some criminals have badges and guns and a conspiracy of accomplices in positions of power shielding them from accountability for their crimes doesn't make them any less criminals. > Just to sp…

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time. In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180…

Many, many, many more people in the US are shooting themselves or others than getting shot by police. We're talking like, 1K per year shot by cops versus 100 PER DAY of overall gun murder/suicide. Yes, police violence is a problem, but the 1K shot by cops is mostly an artifact of our crazy high overall gun violence problem.

Edit: so, to summarize, yes, I do think that our crazy high number of people shot by police per capita is because of and strongly related to our crazy high number of people shooting each other and themselves.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#319

Post by woeirua »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #316
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Coming from a poor (and incidentally very white) area myself, I understand the sentiment behind 'defund the police', but being comfortably middle class now, I also recognize it's something of a nonstarter with people who don't have that experience. I prefer 'Police Out Of Poor Neighborhoods'. Police actually add value in rich neighborhoods (maybe by definition), and it's got a humorous acronym. Edit: And police are m…

Yes, lets further exacerbate class disparities by now only providing safety and security for the rich. At least this way we can stop pretending that we even care about the poor.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#320

Post by Wohlf »

asjw wrote: post #306
dragonwriter wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police They are both worried about criminals. The fact that some criminals have badges and guns and a conspiracy of accomplices in positions of power shielding them from accountability for their crimes doesn't make them any less criminals. > Just to sp…

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time. In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180…

>Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety.

Number of homicides in the USA in 2017: 19,510

Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Number of homicides in Italy in 2017: 357

Deaths per 100,000 population: 0.6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy

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