Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 343 posts

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#181

Post by guyzero »

totalZero wrote: post #166
guyzero wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unbelievable how naked the anti-immigrant sentiment from you and numerous other commenters. I'm honestly shocked.

This policy change will have a far-reaching impact on immigrants' lives, but it will also have an impact on the lives of non-immigrants. In light of that, you cannot reasonably argue that non-immigrants (or immigrant citizens) should be silent about H1Bs. Moreover, an individual can collaborate constructively with immigrant coworkers on a personal level, while also advocating politically for a more restrictive immigr…

How is it in the collective interests of Americans to block highly educated and productive people from taking jobs in the US? The economy is not a zero-sum game. The administration still lets in temporary agricultural workers - who work for incredibly low wages that very much undercut jobs for Americans - and yet keeps out people who work in fields where there is a shortage of qualified workers and who earn relatively high incomes?

Educated immigrants grow the US economy and increate the total employment of the country in the long run. That's who is being kept out here.

This isn't an action that's being taken to help fix issues with the H1B visa system. It's simply to stop immigration to the US.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#182

Post by [deleted] »

Daishiman wrote: post #23
automated_toast wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"

None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires. H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.

[deleted]

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#183

Post by rukittenme »

foota wrote: post #124
throwawaygh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, we should just enforce the original intent of the H1B. 1. Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines, and Justice should be given a real budget for running these investigations as a matter of course. And the burden of proof to demonstrate you needed to import labor should be pretty high. If you don't do this, then H1B abuse will happen. 2. Compani…

Personally, I don't think it matters much. So what if we allow more software engineers from other countries? We haven't done anything special to deserve a job more than they have. My only concerns with it are about their well-being and freedom under the current system.

> We haven't done anything special to deserve a job more than they have.

By being born to an area you have done something special. You have received the special benefit of local education and infrastructure, you have familial and social connections to the people of that local area. You may even have a shared sense of local obligation to uplift the people you live near.

The problem with importing foreign labor isn't that they can't develop feelings of community or form social ties to an area. It's that someone local is harmed or excluded (after significant investment in them) while a foreign worker is underpaid and overworked in a job that exists because of the local's tax dollars.

We're allowing greed to create a permanent underclass of locals who can not climb the social hierarchy while also importing highly-educated quasi-slaves into the country. The whole thing reeks of economic opportunism and, to me, represents the very worst of capitalism.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#184

Post by nsm »

jimbob45 wrote: post #61

Counterpoint: I’d rather gut the H1B system and ease the path to citizenship. The H1B system just exists for employers to pay lower wages to skilled workers. I would much rather those workers get fast-tracked to citizenship instead. Letting them leave with the money they make here isn’t in our best interests and neither is preventing them from changing companies, which allows employers to underpay them. I would heavi…

The reality is that the US government has done NO meaningful progress on immigration reform to guarantee a path to citizenship for skilled people. This leaves H1B as the only option and now that is gone too, but only due to executive order. I find it hard to believe there will be any meaningful reform under any administration. Particularly until they can get out of this habit of clumping all kinds of immigration (legal and illegal, skilled and unskilled) into one bill, so that nobody can agree on anything.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#185

Post by pylua »

foota wrote: post #124
throwawaygh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, we should just enforce the original intent of the H1B. 1. Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines, and Justice should be given a real budget for running these investigations as a matter of course. And the burden of proof to demonstrate you needed to import labor should be pretty high. If you don't do this, then H1B abuse will happen. 2. Compani…

Personally, I don't think it matters much. So what if we allow more software engineers from other countries? We haven't done anything special to deserve a job more than they have. My only concerns with it are about their well-being and freedom under the current system.

The problem is that it doesn’t cut both ways. You will not be able to get a job in their country.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#186

Post by Supermancho »

spatley wrote: post #129
automated_toast wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not a race thing, it's a money thing. Hong Kong Chinese don't want paltry wages so they import Filipinos. Lebanese don't want paltry wages so they import Sri Lankans. Even black South Africans don't want paltry wages to they import Zimbabweans.

It's not a race thing, it's a money thing. The U. S. cotton agriculture workers don't want to work for nothing so they import Africans.

The US Railroad liked Chinese immigrants, etc. That's what happened, for the same reasons that H1B visa hires are popular.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#187

Post by troebr »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #160
adrr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just stack rank h1b applicants by salary instead of using a lottery system? That forces the income levels up which should benefit Americans workers as well.

If you did that you'd favour profitable industries (say computing) over areas with actual shortages (say Arabic translators in Detroit). You'd also make it impossible for areas with low cost of living (Detroit) to be allocated any H1B visa. It's one of those perennial proposals that always come up but are really poorly thought out when you look into it.

It would also favor really large companies, that don't necessarily hire better engineers, but pay substantially more.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#188

Post by pm90 »

automated_toast wrote: post #159
vsskanth wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical professions are physically constrained, easier to lobby and limit supply. Software development is not as physically constrained, any moves to restrict supply will automatically lead to offshoring similar to manufacturing. Licensing does not limit offshoring. Accounting is the best example of this. There are many licensed CFAs in India and Philippines doing outsourced accounting work.

That's fine. Then those countries do better, and the world becomes a better place.

Wait you were ecstatic because it would supposedly reduce competition. It’s been pointed out to you that it won’t, but you’re fine with it because... for some other reason? What is it, then?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#189

Post by dragonwriter »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #175
HarryHirsch wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you did that you'd favour profitable industries (say computing) over areas with actual shortages (say Arabic translators in Detroit). You'd also make it impossible for areas with low cost of living (Detroit) to be allocated any H1B visa. It's one of those perennial proposals that always come up but are really poorly thought out when you look into it.

If there were "actual shortages" of Arabic translators in Detroit as you suggest, market forces would drive wages up until enough people with the skills were sufficiently motivated to move to Detroit. In the case of a long-term, widespread shortage, rising salaries would lead to a widespread increase in people training to enter the industry. This is exactly what's been happening with software the past several years.

An actual shortage would, by definition, mean that, at least in the short term, no amount of price pressure would meet the need, because of a supply constraint that prevents response to price level changes. For jobs that need to be done on site and take significant time to acquire necessary skills, national borders can be a supply constraint for labor if there is an absence of local talent sufficiently qualified but there is foreign qualified talent. That's the problem H-1B notionally addresses.

If you have static demand and it is possible to train to meet the need, you shouldn't have long-term shortages, but dynamically increasing needs can produce a long-term gap, where you are continuously playing catch up.

If H-1B was well adapted to real shortages, the continuous use in tech would indicate such a persistent dynamic shortage. I don't think that's the real condition, and I don't think H-1B is well adapted to serve only real shortages, but the idea of real, including persistent, shortages that price signalling alone doesn’t suffice to close is not to be dismissed.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#190

Post by fzeroracer »

president wrote: post #109
fzeroracer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lump of labour fallacy is just that, a fallacy.

Yes, in a vacuum. It ignores the fact that at a given point of time, there are only a limited number of jobs in the market.

No, you've managed to completely misinterpret how the lump of labor fallacy works and fell for the fallacy again.

Job demand is elastic. If tomorrow X of all immigrants who held a job in the US left, that doesn't mean X jobs open up. You're losing X customers and Y investors where Y is a subset of X. Jobs are not a zero-sum game and H1B does not exist just to take away jobs because inevitably some of those people will go on to create more jobs and companies in the US.

Again, I will repeat: The lump of labor fallacy is a fallacy for a reason.

Post reply on HN