Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#21

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #11

andrenotgiant wrote: post #3

My news and social media feeds are almost universally negative about this. Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it?

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

This is really not true. If you do hiring in tech, just finding qualified candidates is a long, arduous process way before even talking about compensation.

There's a hell of a lot of problems with hiring practices worldwide, but qualified software engineers are not abundant.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#22

Post by automated_toast » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

automated_toast wrote: post #17

Supermancho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"

And it's not a race thing, it's a money thing. Hong Kong Chinese don't want paltry wages so they import Filipinos. Lebanese don't want paltry wages so they import Sri Lankans. Even black South Africans don't want paltry wages to they import Zimbabweans.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#23

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

automated_toast wrote: post #17

Supermancho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"

None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires.

H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#24

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

automated_toast wrote: post #15

czatt wrote: post #4

As an intended MBA applicant for the class of 2021, the recent uncertainty around H1B visas makes me very uneasy and disappointed. I was forced to leave the U.S. back in 2016 despite having an investment banking job and paying meaningful taxes, which was incredibly frustrating. I was hoping for another shot at living and working in the US after completing an MBA, and now it looks like there either won't be a chance o…

Bon Voyage! There are enough Americans who need an MBA degree. And there are more than enough Americans who can do an investment banking jobs.

[deleted]

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#25

Post by vsskanth » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

gibolt wrote: post #10

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

I would fully support reform. Do you think there is a meaningful chance that is the current plan?

not really. Most H1B rules are written in law. You cannot make significant changes without going through Congress. Otherwise they will be defeated in courts.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#26

Post by sjg007 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #6

H1B visas provide employers every incentive to lie to import cheap talent and work them hard. There are ways to meet the very real need to import the best brains from around the world. But H1B isn't set up to do this very effectively. Off the top of my head, a better option would be to allow immigration with a $60k bond to the government that has to be paid down at $1k/month by the current employer. With the employee…

What would a bond accomplish? It seems easily gamed by say an insurance company that would pay the bond for premiums.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#27

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

I don't think that's a realistic hope. A free-floating pool of nonresident employees would be, wrongly but inevitably, seen as a scheme to reduce American employment.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#28

Post by ones_and_zeros » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

Immigration is good for innovation, the H1B system is not. This administrations rollout of the suspension is cruel, which is the point. H1B Reform/Replacement is needed, the status quo is not.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#29

Post by z9e » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #6

H1B visas provide employers every incentive to lie to import cheap talent and work them hard. There are ways to meet the very real need to import the best brains from around the world. But H1B isn't set up to do this very effectively. Off the top of my head, a better option would be to allow immigration with a $60k bond to the government that has to be paid down at $1k/month by the current employer. With the employee…

Yup this was my experience at a very large financial corporation in the US. As a Team Lead I had to interview and hire for multiple positions across my org. Most of our jobs ended up being filled by H1B candidates, and not necessarily because we couldn't find local people. We paid them peanuts, and worked them to death. A lot of the money went to the staffing company that provided them.

Predictably, some people are going to claim racism for this move by Trump, but I think it's a big problem that needs to be addressed.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#30

Post by akuchling » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

pentae wrote: post #18

qppo wrote: post #16

The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me. The system absolutely needs reform, and I think most people can agree with that. But that said, blanket bans on immigration by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration are probably not designed to help America or innovation either. The…

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/26/783047584/leaked-emails-fuel-...

"For almost three decades, Jared Taylor has been publishing his ideas about race at the American Renaissance magazine and now at a website called AmRen, which is considered a mouthpiece for white supremacist ideology. ... The website is not well-known outside white nationalist circles — but it found an audience in White House adviser Stephen Miller."