Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#81

Post by president » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #76

president wrote: post #38

While Andrew Ng is devastated that an H1B worker and their family has to pack their bags and return to their home country, one American worker will have the opportunity to enter the job market and feed his/her family. EDIT: Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a situation where many engineers on HN are H1B workers themselves or start-up owners/affiliates who benefit and profit off of H1B workers so it's obvious that I…

> While Andrew Ng is devastated that an H1B worker and their family has to pack their bags and return to their home country, one American worker will have the opportunity to enter the job market and feed his/her family. And the H1B will also take their monetary capital (above average) and work potential somewhere else. Which means, one lesser person paying rent, one lesser person buying local produce, one lesser pers…

A homeless person out of a job is not able to pay taxes and contribute to the economy either.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#82

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

devalgo wrote: post #49

Daishiman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires. H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.

Pretty sure this is demonstrably false. There are large spreadsheets out there documenting H1B wages at FAANG type companies and they are almost universally less than the equivalent US Citizen wages.

Perhaps, you would share these spreadsheets and their provenance. I certainly do not recall ever paying H1-Bs less than domestic workers.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#83

Post by epistasis » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

This executive order has nothing at all to do with reform or the concerns you are stating.

The only point is to make life more difficult for people that need a J1, H1-B, or anything else to continue their career plans now.

It's also to make it seem like these positions are taking jobs away from current US residents, and stoke anti-immigrant sentiment.

There are undoubtedly flaws with the H1-B process, but this move makes it less likely for reform to happen, not more.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#84

Post by hogFeast » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

etrabroline wrote: post #32

pentae wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

Many foreigners seeking to immigrate to the US see anything short of total open boarders as white supremacy. Americans caring about, protecting and developing our own workforce is the great evil of our day.

What is also funny is that settled immigrants often have more right-wing views about immigration than people born into that society.

This doesn't appear to happen in the US because of the history and the significant levels of illegal immigration today but, where I am, the group most in favour of controls on migration are settled immigrants.

It seems very odd to say limiting immigration is white supremacy. The US has a huge illegal immigration problem, being in favour of immigration is being in favour of controls. There is no realistic alternative (I get why Democracts want more voters...but speaking non-politically).

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#85

Post by chabons » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

automated_toast wrote: post #9

Most H-1B to green card conversions are never really offered as competitive jobs. The job postings are so ludicrously specific that they are targeted to that one exact person. Plus, the pay is always lower. If we can't do the job ourselves, we shouldn't have the job.

Do you have a source for that "the pay is always lower" comment? As far as I know, visa status doesn't affect compensation for employees in the same full-time role at FAANG + Microsoft, though I only have direct experience with one of these companies.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#86

Post by qazpot » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

akuchling wrote: post #30

pentae wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/26/783047584/leaked-emails-fuel-... "For almost three decades, Jared Taylor has been publishing his ideas about race at the American Renaissance magazine and now at a website called AmRen, which is considered a mouthpiece for white supremacist ideology. ... The website is not well-known outside white nationalist circles — but it found an audience in White House adviser Stephen Miller."

To be fair the bar to be considered a white supermacist is very low in today's political correctness environment.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#87

Post by mathattack » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

I’ve talked to several H1-B recipients who resent being second class citizens, and have to endure abuse from their vendors. The complaints have universally come from the large IT services teams, who have a form of legal non-competes in the Visa.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#88

Post by qppo » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

etrabroline wrote: post #32

pentae wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

Many foreigners seeking to immigrate to the US see anything short of total open boarders as white supremacy. Americans caring about, protecting and developing our own workforce is the great evil of our day.

I am not a foreigner seeking to immigrate. I'm an American, but only because we had open borders (for white people) when my ancestors immigrated. Developing "our" workforce is only possible through more immigration, not less, and that has always been the story of America.

Many Americans meanwhile are blind to the fact that our current administration's immigration policy is emblematic of the systemic oppression of non-whites in our society. It's not about "protecting" anything but the comfort of whites.

It's not that "anything short of total open borders" is white supremacy. It's that our current immigration policy is functioning as a tool of white supremacy, whose endgame is a white ethnostate. And a huge reason that literal Nazis and white nationalists vote Republican and celebrate the Presidency of Donald Trump is because their explicit goal is a white nation, which that party and that man are furthering through these immigration policies.

If you want to protect and develop our labor, you should be in favor of more immigration and not less.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#89

Post by etrabroline » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #55

etrabroline wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many foreigners seeking to immigrate to the US see anything short of total open boarders as white supremacy. Americans caring about, protecting and developing our own workforce is the great evil of our day.

Funny though that you see a muuuch more receptive tone to H1B limits here on HN compared to say, a story about American manufacturing going overseas. Quite interesting how one’s perspective on outsourcing changes when it’s YOUR livelihood being threatened.

If millions of Americans were moving to India and taking up huge numbers of the top university spots and jobs, Indians would call it white supremacy, and they'd be right.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#90

Post by rantwasp » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

anticonformist wrote: post #45

Since I'm disagreeing with the majority here: I have nothing but love and respect for people of all countries. I also happen to disagree with the groupthink on the H1B for reasons that have nothing to do with being bigoted. 1. The H1B is unethical because it intentionally brain-drains countries. Why is it good for the U.S. to take the most educated (and wealthy) foreigners from their countries? Doesn't this hurt thes…

> 99% of the H1B jobs could all be filled locally

that’s a bold claim. do you have a any sources to back that up?

also, just because someone that is only interested in the financial aspect does a bootcamp, does not mean that they can immediately ramp up and do the work someone else has a formal education in and has been doing for 10 years. that’s not how life works.