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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#41

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

If your job can be done remotely, you will likely face more competition, not less. Restricting the H1-B will only lead to companies following the talent back to their countries with lower costs of living.

Moreover, the current restriction has barely any bite. It only restricts workers who are not in the US from getting a visa until December 2020.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#42
post #4

As an intended MBA applicant for the class of 2021, the recent uncertainty around H1B visas makes me very uneasy and disappointed. I was forced to leave the U.S. back in 2016 despite having an investment banking job and paying meaningful taxes, which was incredibly frustrating. I was hoping for another shot at living and working in the US after completing an MBA, and now it looks like there either won't be a chance o…

The other poster was remarkably rude for no reason. I’d say that you don’t really want an H1B though. What you want is a concrete and easily accessible path to citizenship that takes your high-skilled degree into account. To that end, I would support broader immigration reform rather than trying to fix the irredeemable H1B program.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#43

While Andrew Ng is devastated that an H1B worker and their family has to pack their bags and return to their home country, one American worker will have the opportunity to enter the job market and feed his/her family. EDIT: Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a situation where many engineers on HN are H1B workers themselves or start-up owners/affiliates who benefit and profit off of H1B workers so it's obvious that I…

The lump of labour fallacy is just that, a fallacy.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that quantifying impact on the U.S. innovation? It shows people being moved out of a bunch of countries and to another but I see no demonstration of that positive impact.

The graph is not just people, but specifically inventors. The US has a giant net influx of inventors (some of whom arrive on a H1B), which presumably creates wealth, jobs, etc.

>some of whom arrive on a H1B

Isn't this the key part, isn't that graph rather irrelevant to the H1B discussion if it doesn't specifically point out the H1B numbers?

As an aside the H1B is an abusive system that depresses technical wages and oppresses the visa holders who can lose their residency on the whims of large corporations.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#45
Since I'm disagreeing with the majority here: I have nothing but love and respect for people of all countries. I also happen to disagree with the groupthink on the H1B for reasons that have nothing to do with being bigoted.

1. The H1B is unethical because it intentionally brain-drains countries.

Why is it good for the U.S. to take the most educated (and wealthy) foreigners from their countries? Doesn't this hurt these countries?

2. The H1B is unethical because it advantages large corporations and rich immigrants over small businesses and locals.

Small companies can't generally hire using H1B, so they lose out on the scam. The immigrants are disproportionately the wealthiest people from their countries. By buying expensive educations, their parents are buying them access to the U.S. Rich corporations helping rich people by exploiting others.

3. The H1B is unethical because companies commit fraud using it without consequence.

It's an open secret in the tech world that the H1B (and other visas) are being used to lower costs (through lower salaries, increasing supply, and coerced retention) and not to hire for roles that could not otherwise be filled by locals. This is fraud and yet there is little to no enforcement.

99% of the H1B jobs could all be filled locally. It would just drive up costs for large corporations like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Tesla.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#46
post #18
post #16

The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me. The system absolutely needs reform, and I think most people can agree with that. But that said, blanket bans on immigration by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration are probably not designed to help America or innovation either. The…

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

Donald Trump

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#47
I came to the US from Canada under TN status, and later switched to an H1B so I could get a green card. I used to think it was a good thing, but I have since changed my mind.

The Wikipedia article for the H1B outlines most of the problems, but I'll talk about my experience.

When I moved from Canada to the US (for a software engineering role), I thought I getting a huge raise. It was about twice what I was earning in Canada prior, so for me personally it was a big step up, but what I didn't realize at the time is that they were actually paying me about 50% below the market rate in the US. At the time I was making about $56k/year in Canada (in CAD, about $40k USD), and I was hired at around $85k/year in the US. This was in 2009. What I realized soon after, was that someone with my experience was making about twice that much in the US.

It wasn't until I got a green card (which took 5 years) that my salary adjusted upward to the market rate. The company that helped me get my green card was Airbnb, but even back then they hired me (while I was still on a TN) well below the market rate. I managed to negotiate my salary up, but I was still anchored near the bottom of my cohort.

While working at these companies (including Airbnb), I felt trapped because I could not easily quit or search for a better paying job. My employers knew this, since according to the rules I'm required to leave the country if I lose or quit my job. Many companies also don't want to deal with H1Bs or TNs because they don't want the fuss of dealing with immigration problems.

While waiting for my green card to arrive, I was trapped at Airbnb for about 2 years. They actually fired me from my job before my green card arrived, and were kind enough to let me wait a few more months until I had the card in hand before I officially left the company. In those months I pretty much just sat around, enjoyed the nice lunches and dinners, and hung out with coworkers.

I think immigration is great, but I think these employment based visas only work well for employers. They make it easy to hire cheap workers at below market rates, and have them stick around because they can't leave. I think we need real immigration reform, or, better yet, allow companies to hire the best people and make it illegal to discriminate based on nationality. The TN/H1B system is just legalized discrimination.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/26/783047584/leaked-emails-fuel-... "For almost three decades, Jared Taylor has been publishing his ideas about race at the American Renaissance magazine and now at a website called AmRen, which is considered a mouthpiece for white supremacist ideology. ... The website is not well-known outside white nationalist circles — but it found an audience in White House adviser Stephen Miller."

So Stephen Miller is a white supremacist now? He must be hiding it pretty well, since I've heard through hundreds of hours of his podcast with Raheem Kasam and he has never said anything remotely racist.

Stephen Miller, the one working in the White House, doesn't host any podcast. You are thinking of Jason Miller.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"

None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires. H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.

Pretty sure this is demonstrably false. There are large spreadsheets out there documenting H1B wages at FAANG type companies and they are almost universally less than the equivalent US Citizen wages.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that quantifying impact on the U.S. innovation? It shows people being moved out of a bunch of countries and to another but I see no demonstration of that positive impact.

The graph is not just people, but specifically inventors. The US has a giant net influx of inventors (some of whom arrive on a H1B), which presumably creates wealth, jobs, etc.

How many of those really arrive on H1B, and how many of those have no other options? I was told that even I could apply for some "talent visa" (the one that fashion models often use) because I competed in the math olympiad... the bar seems to be set incredibly low (speaking of myself, not the models).
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