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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#41

Post by chockablock »

psychometry wrote: post #7

This is why we need civilian oversight of every police department. Cops are generally too corrupt and/or too incompetent to investigate their own. They've proven their inability to hold themselves accountable for their actions, so it's up to the rest of us to do it.

Effective civilian oversight is made damn hard by the political power wielded by the police. Most of this article is in fact about the ways in which NYC's existing civilian review board is neutered and undermined by police department control of every aspect of its work: investigation, adjudication, and punishment.

Investigation:

> civilian investigators don’t have direct access to the [body cam] footage. They email requests to the NYPD, which decides which footage is relevant. The department takes its time.

Adjudication:

> [E]ven if the CCRB substantiates a case, the commissioner still has complete authority over what to do next. He can decide to simply ignore the recommended punishment. The commissioner can also let the case go before an internal NYPD judge (whose boss is the commissioner). If the judge decides punishment is merited, the commissioner can overturn or downgrade that, too.

Punishment:

>In 2018, the CCRB looked into about 3,000 allegations of misuse of force. It was able to substantiate 73 of those allegations. The biggest punishment? Nine officers who lost vacation days, according to CCRB records.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#42

Post by edraferi »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #3

Ending qualified immunity and civil forfeiture are ideas whose time has arrived. Even with bipartisan support for stopping these unconstitutional practices they have enjoyed surprising staying power through different administrations.

Qualified Immunity is fascinating. Nobody ever passed a law for it, it just evolved. Really weird. Need new laws to remove it.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#43

Post by vkou »

austincheney wrote: post #40
minikites wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we could abolish the police and create a new public safety department without the structural racism and ingrained power-hungry culture.

What would such a new public safety department be and how would it differ from police? What would such a department do differently in the circumstance of failure to follow lawful orders and how would it have no systemic racism?

Having a peace officer department that is not given guns, or a mandate to apply violence first, and ask questions later, would be a substantial improvement for doing 95-99% of the work police currently do.

It might still be systemically racist, but at least the consequences thereof will be lower.

We've already tried reforming departments. It doesn't work. The entire management structure of your neighbourhood police department resists reform. The line officers resist reform. The police chief resists reform. No amount of winger-wagging at them will result in reform. No amount of sensitivity training or unconscious bias training, or body cams have managed to reign them in.

Wiping the slate clean, and starting over might.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#44

Post by jeffdavis »

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I looked at the numbers in another comment[1], and it seems that for every one black person killed by police (justifiably or not), over 20 black people are murdered by other blacks.

So either there's something wrong with my analysis, or the fear of police is somewhat misplaced.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579467

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#45

Post by eplanit »

jibcage wrote: post #16
joshuaheard wrote: post #11

Why is "Black" capitalized, but "white" is not?

“For many people, Black reflects a shared sense of identity and community. White carries a different set of meanings; capitalizing the word in this context risks following the lead of white supremacists.” https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php

So much new perspective and so many new rules to absorb. We need some kind of efficient way to learn these things. Maybe some kind of (re-)education center, maybe. Hey, it's summertime -- how about a camp? /s

We're in very bizarre times, for sure. Is all this even meant to be constructive (because it's not), or just provocative and divisive (which it demonstrably is)? I can't help but think that the outcome we're seeing (division) is the actual goal.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#47

Post by vkou »

chockablock wrote: post #41
psychometry wrote: post #7

This is why we need civilian oversight of every police department. Cops are generally too corrupt and/or too incompetent to investigate their own. They've proven their inability to hold themselves accountable for their actions, so it's up to the rest of us to do it.

Effective civilian oversight is made damn hard by the political power wielded by the police. Most of this article is in fact about the ways in which NYC's existing civilian review board is neutered and undermined by police department control of every aspect of its work: investigation, adjudication, and punishment. Investigation: > civilian investigators don’t have direct access to the [body cam] footage. They email r…

All of these problems come from the department being fully controlled by the police union.

I am typically a pro-union person. I even think that police unions, as a concept, should exist.

But police unions, as implemented, are the reason that civilian oversight of police is impossible.

Typical unions consist of line workers - with maybe line managers. They are then overseen by professional managers, directors, etc, who are not part of the union. The union advocates for the line workers, in opposition to managers.

Police department unions are completely different. Every level of management, except for the very top (The mayor and city council) are part of the union. And, unsurprisingly, this leads to a huge conflict of interest, where the line workers aren't opposed by the managers - but are working together, against the civilian authorities.

To draw a parallel, it would be like the entirety of GM, including the CEO, being part of the UAW union. Do you think that would represent shareholder & board interests well? Or would it lead to a completely out of control company, that would operate without any care for board oversight?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#48

Post by quxbar »

jeffdavis wrote: post #44
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I looked at the numbers in another comment[1], and it seems that for every one black person killed by police (justifiably or not), over 20 black people are murdered by other blacks. So either there's something wrong with my analysis, or the fear of police is somewhat misplaced. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579467

I think you missed the headline - the police are murdering in broad daylight without legal repercussions.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#49

Post by dvtrn »

jeffdavis wrote: post #44
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I looked at the numbers in another comment[1], and it seems that for every one black person killed by police (justifiably or not), over 20 black people are murdered by other blacks. So either there's something wrong with my analysis, or the fear of police is somewhat misplaced. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579467

Or we can acknowledge that discussions oriented around in-group violence perpetuated by members of said group (which isn't novel nor unique to the black community) do not obviate discussions of police misconduct and issues apparent in the criminal justice system perpetrated by a powerful and state-operated out-group, Mr. Davis.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#50

Post by jeffbee »

jeffdavis wrote: post #44
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I looked at the numbers in another comment[1], and it seems that for every one black person killed by police (justifiably or not), over 20 black people are murdered by other blacks. So either there's something wrong with my analysis, or the fear of police is somewhat misplaced. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579467

The difference is in the forward probabilities. Most people who are murdered by criminals are socially connected to their murderers, e.g. they are in gangs. People who are killed by police are killed without that connection, and there's little they could have done about it.
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