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What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

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Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#291

Post by Toutouxc »

jablan wrote: post #268
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't look like macOS 11's new UI is going to need macOS 10 users to "stop and figure out" the interface in the way switching from macOS 10 to Xfce (or vice-versa) would. The buttons aren't all moving around to strange places. The functionality isn't materially changing. What they're changing is the design language, not the fundamental UX.

Well, as an occasional MacOS user, it still pisses me off when I discover that maximize button is in fact full screen button.

Yeah, except it is NOT a "maximize" button and never was. macOS just doesn't do maximized apps the way Windows and some Linux DEs do.

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#292

Post by mft_ »

fnord123 wrote: post #287
neuronic wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am typing on a 2017 MBP keyboard that never broke. While I generally share the criticism it is neither garbage nor worthless. These unnecessary juvenile hyperbolisms are so boring. The keyboards had a higher fault rate and many other issues and Apple has corrected its mistake, albeit 1-2 years too late from a consumer perspective. That's all there is to the story and the only semi-relevant competition to MBPs was S…

I eventually threw away my apple keyboards from 2005 so they are literally garbage. Regarding the 2017 keyboards, I'm not even talking about the fault rate. They had no escape key and the key travel was too small so it was like typing on a touch screen.

> and the key travel was too small so it was like typing on a touch screen

No, no it's not really.

It's all about preference and tolerance. I bought my Mum an 'old' Apple USB keyboard (i.e. similar to the pre-2017 laptop keys) when her PC's existing KB broke, as I liked mine very much. Being a life-long touch-typer, she just couldn't get on with it, because the travel was too little for her. She's now very happy with a KB with mechanical (Cherry) key switches.

In contrast, I prefer the older Apple KBs, but can get on perfectly well on my 2017 MacBook Pro's KB; and it's not like a touch-screen at all.

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#293

Post by Xylakant »

72deluxe wrote: post #290
filleduchaos wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they really did was make it harder to thoughtlessly do. If you can't cope with the procedure needed to make changes to the write-protected folders, maybe whatever it is you wanted to write there isn't actually that important.

That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? Finder hides all of /etc and /bin and /usr for the "protection" of normal users, just like the default view for Windows Explorer under C:\Windows\System. But you can still change the contents on Windows, or see the directories in Terminal on macOS. Should they hide those directories when you use Terminal too? After all, /etc is important. Your reasoning would a…

> That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous?

There have been examples of (un)installer scripts removing substantial parts of your system, steam for example. Linux in this case https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671, but not generally unthinkable on MacOS. It's generally good if the system puts up barriers to prevent such occurrences.

You're entirely welcome to disable these protections, but MacOS is designed to protect Joe User who may have substantially less knowledge and who has no general need to mess around in /etc

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#294

Post by filleduchaos »

RivieraKid wrote: post #282
filleduchaos wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt "normal people" are losing much sleep over a virtual drive showing up in their Finder sidebars. It's only a "UX fail" if you're of the opinion that all platforms should work exactly the same way, and/or that UX paradigms that aren't what you already know are inherently wrong.

I'm not saying people are losing sleep over it but it's just bad UX. If you download and install an app, it shouldn't have the side-effect of a new disk appearing on your desktop. It's obvious, ask any UX designer if you don't believe me.

Again, UX paradigms aren't inherently bad or wrong simply because they're not what _you_ are used to.

macOS users are aware (even though they might not know the technical terms in question) that a .dmg is not "an app". It's a virtual disk format - something reinforced by the literal disk that's its file icon - and using one is reminiscent of inserting a CD or USB stick to get files from. _That's the point_. You insert a disk and copy its contents to your own hard drive (applications aren't the only things stored or distributed via virtual disks).

It's like complaining that clicking on a ZIP file has the "side effect" of creating a new file/folder. People who actually use archives understand that they're container formats.

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#295

Post by polk »

mxcrossb wrote: post #46
dimmke wrote: post #18

I have to be honest and go completely against the crowd here - but I think the UI updates are very good. They make the two OSes look cohesive but in a tasteful way. The extra padding in all of the UI is the only thing that I chafe at a little bit, it feels unnecessary. I really don't think they're going to put out touch screen Macs. So I'm not sure what there is to get upset about. I don't see any big functional chan…

Well that and the fact that tech website users basically complain about every UI change. Hacker News is full of people who think XFCE is the height of desktop experience. This is fundamentally different than apple’s core fan base who seem to like any change just for the sake of change.

>fan base who seem to like any change just for the sake of change

I think it's more that (visual) UI Design has the same cyclical property of most other "visual design" like clothing fashion, interior design,... Things look fresh when they're new, after a few years people get bored of the look, and what was once considered modern now looks dated.

Especially for a company like Apple that has built part of its reputation on having the best UI, they can't afford looking behind on the competition. Calling it "change for the sake of change" is partly correct if we were purely talking about products, but it ignores the fact that Apple is as much a marketing company as it is a product company.

Aside from that I think there's also a strong functional argument to be made. iOS and iPad share the same OS, so it makes sense for those to be consistent. As the iPad has matured it's approaching desktop levels of productivity. So now we're in a situation where the iPad is becoming like a Macbook without the keyboard. With so much overlap in functionality, it also makes more sense for those 2 experience to converge rather than diverge. So we're hearing complaints about the "iOSification of the macbook" but they are ignoring the missing link; iOS = iPadOS = macOS

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#296

Post by neuronic »

fnord123 wrote: post #287
neuronic wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am typing on a 2017 MBP keyboard that never broke. While I generally share the criticism it is neither garbage nor worthless. These unnecessary juvenile hyperbolisms are so boring. The keyboards had a higher fault rate and many other issues and Apple has corrected its mistake, albeit 1-2 years too late from a consumer perspective. That's all there is to the story and the only semi-relevant competition to MBPs was S…

I eventually threw away my apple keyboards from 2005 so they are literally garbage. Regarding the 2017 keyboards, I'm not even talking about the fault rate. They had no escape key and the key travel was too small so it was like typing on a touch screen.

Hmm, the travel was really something I got used to quickly, although I also prefer more travel. I found the noise and the lack of an escape key much worse and these issues have recently been corrected.

Still, I don't think these issues made the KBs true garbage. Such examples would be nearly any non-MacBook touch pad or often enough display hinges. Far worse than a slightly less convenient keyboard which can always be supplemented with an external bluetooth keyboard as well. Can't really do that with hinges.

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#297

Post by filleduchaos »

72deluxe wrote: post #290
filleduchaos wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they really did was make it harder to thoughtlessly do. If you can't cope with the procedure needed to make changes to the write-protected folders, maybe whatever it is you wanted to write there isn't actually that important.

That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? Finder hides all of /etc and /bin and /usr for the "protection" of normal users, just like the default view for Windows Explorer under C:\Windows\System. But you can still change the contents on Windows, or see the directories in Terminal on macOS. Should they hide those directories when you use Terminal too? After all, /etc is important. Your reasoning would a…

> What is in / that is dangerous?

...it's...the root of your entire system? Are you really asking me why `rm -rf /` is a meme, or are you just being contrarian?

> Finder hides all of /etc and /bin and /usr for the "protection" of normal users

And you can change Finder's preferences to show those folders, like any actual macOS user that's qualified to be making changes to those folders should know. If you lack both the curiosity and the ability to look up how to enable that option, then you frankly have no business modifying them yourself. If whatever you wanted to copy or edit there wasn't important enough for you to take ten seconds to look up how to do it and then follow through with the instructions, then why on earth would you be complaining about it to anybody?

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#298

Post by suyjuris »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #229
perryizgr8 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why do you want to create new directories at the root level? Why not? It's his system, he should be able to do whatever he likes. On most Linux I can rm -rf / all day long and nobody cares. What's the problem with creating root level directories?

I didn't say there was a problem with it; I just asked what the reason for wanting it was. > On most Linux I can rm -rf / all day long and nobody cares. So let me turn this around: Why do you think a system that doesn't make it difficult to completely destroy it with one command is a bad idea? "It's my system, I should be able to do whatever I like" is an answer, to be sure. (N.B.: in fact, "rm -rf /" won't work with…

> Why do you think a system that doesn't make it difficult to completely destroy it with one command is a bad idea?

This does not seem very charitable.

It is fine if the system warns you about doing potentially dangerous operations (which --no-preserve-root amounts to) but it must not prevent you from ignoring that warning.

Re: What’s New in macOS Big Sur: Human Interface Guidelines

#300

Post by gehsty »

michaelmrose wrote: post #176
dimmke wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, any change will be frowned upon. It just annoys me that I feel like they're drawing the completely wrong conclusions. Apple was the company that dropped the headphone jack from their phone, shipped a laptop with only USB-C ports etc... they don't shy away from making big controversial decisions if they feel like it's good for them. If Apple was going to do this to MacOS, they'd have already done it. They wou…

I still don't understand how anyone with hundreds of billions of dollars ships really crappy anything. Like do hundreds of people just pretend that a crappy keyboard isn't garbage or is it so siloed that most people never get an opportunity to register an opinion?

It’s almost like the amount of money a company has doesn’t correlate with its ability to make a great product :)
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