Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year • Hacker News Board

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#651

Post by president » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

vishakh82 wrote: post #299

So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. So many visa holders in this country will be unable to leave and enter the country for the foreseeable future. If they have sick parents abroad they will not be able to visit them or, in the most tragic circumstances, say goodbye in person. It won't matter whether someone is a world-class r…

Tell that to the majority of displaced American workers who lost their jobs and whose lives spiraled into homelessness and drug addiction because their jobs and dignity were lost to imported labor.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#652

Post by president » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #444

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #278

All data indicate there is no shortage of US Citizens that could fill STEM positions and that H1-B holders on average make well below market rate. Outright ban is the wrong tool and I can't imagine that this is a reasoned policy response to a well understood abuse of wage-arbitrage. The right answer would be to mandate comparable wages for H1-B immigrants as for median employee with the same experience/tenure etc...…

If there is no shortage of US citizens that can fill STEM roles, then the H1-B program has no reason to take in STEM workers. Its purpose is to fill skill shortages. There is clearly no skills shortage, therefore the ban, while perhaps overkill, is not unjustified. Companies simply use it to get cheap labor.

Yes, you are stating the obvious, however, you neglect to understand that much of the policies that support H1-B labor are lobbied by corporations who want cheap slave labor and Indian consulting companies who want to ensure the H1-B pipeline stays alive. They will say anything including lie about "skill shortages" to enact these policies.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#653

Post by randompwd » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

jpmoral wrote: post #528

pascalxus wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A google job is like the top 1-3%. The vast majority of people don't make anywhere near that much. second, it's not about hatred for immigrants. It's just about jobs and housing. And, there's simply not enough of those to go around. I mean, sure we could have more immigrants. But, make no mistake, it will reduce the amount high end jobs available and reduce the housing supply even more. And, actually, most blue state…

This doesn't address GPs question about why, if local talent is plentiful, companies are willing to spend a lot of money and jump through several hoops to pay top dollar to immigrants when they could pay the same to a local and not have to spend extra money and effort.

Because, in essence, they get servitude from far more of those foreign hires than they do from the locals who can confidently exercise their rights.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#654

Post by foogazi » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 12:52 AM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #446

codelord wrote: post #313

Disclaimer: I'm an immigrant. There are companies like Cognizant/InfoSys/Tata/... whose business model is based on abusing the H1B system, and that's obviously wrong and I'm quite surprised they get away with it. I'm not defending that. To those who broadly argue against skilled visas, consider this: Most H1B immigrants are between 20-30 age range. The prime age to join the workforce. Think how much investment you ha…

I know this will probably be flagged or voted down, but at least please understand that I truly want to see people in the US get better and more equal. Here it goes: if the US wants to invest in local talent, the US had better invest heavily in education. And I'm not talking about an-iPad-per-kid kind of investment, but investment to hire great teachers, lots of them, to public schools to the point that tutoring scho…

Look, the people coming over on H1B are the top picks from other countries in terms of motivation and willingness to work - people that see tech as their golden ticket

What you are saying is how can the US turn their bottom tier performers to match this

Nothing lights a fire under your ass as realizing you are a layoff away from leaving the country and having to start over

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#655

Post by noip » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

I think H1B visas should be obliterated. One of the justifications is that they bring in international talent to fill in "shortages" in America. However, according this article by the Harvard Business Review: https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-explained

- There is mixed evidence that there are actually shortages in STEM - People are graduating from STEM fields at a rather high rate than in the past, but only half of them end up utilizing their degree; in sectors such as IT, one reason being why graduates aren't entering the field is due to a lack of job openings - Despite all the clamor about "shortages," some STEM fields pay embarrassingly low, and in fact pay STEM workers less than they have in the past - There is no requirement that entities show proof of workforce shortage before hiring workers on H-1B visas - Some workplaces have already had American workers train in their H1-B visa replacements and then were out of a job

Not in the article, but some of my own experiences having been in the STEM field - Many internationals seeking to get hired in the US STEM force don't actually have the "everyday technology" that the US uses, such as in molecular biology labs; this means quite a lot goes into training H1-B visa holders. Couple that with poor English-speaking skills. I found myself having to explain to an H1-B visa holder what a "pen" was, or a "shelf." Granted, some H1-B visa holders underwent formal education in the US, obtaining PhDs and whatnot, so you'd imagine their English would be better, however... - Many countries look down on the US. I have worked for many foreign employers in STEM, and have been insulted just for being an American, and their views of America are largely stereotyped (Americans love guns, they eat hamburgers and pizza and are fat, etc.) - It changes the workplace culture; I've worked in a variety of STEM environments that had a lot of internationals, and more than once I was out-grouped for being an American. I have had opportunities closed off to me simply because my group's sense of belonging was rooted in being "non-American." This was detrimental to my aspirations in entering the STEM field as an American.

I don't believe there is a shortage in STEM. The fact that it's hard to even get a well-paying job in STEM, especially tenure positions in STEM, and that once you do land a STEM position you can face discrimination for being an American in AMERICA, H1B visas should be obsolete.

Get rid of the internationals. Focus on your American workforce and create incentives to enter STEM. Create a better system for learning math, and inspiring aspirations in science Create environments that will nurture American students instead of block their opportunities. Give Americans a chance to contribute to their economy instead of shoveling money down the pockets of people who don't even like America or Americans and would go back home if they could.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#656

Post by ycombonator » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #178

ycombonator wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all eventually come back to USA after gaining a foothold in Canada. TN Visas. Majority of TN Visa users are immigrants into Canada.

This sounds like a massive exaggeration to me. Do you have any citation to back up these claims?

>For the lakhs in India who aspire for an H1B visa, the news is disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. The options of Canada and Australia, which once seemed alternatives to the American dream, are also more distant now, given the dismal global economic scenario. One young couple, on a temporary visa in the US which will expire soon, had invested in acquiring a Permanent Residence (PR) in neighbouring Canada, but they are now unsure of that too.

[1]https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/06/22/american-dream-...

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#657

Post by satya71 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

2ion wrote: post #420

satya71 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This is already happening. As US becomes a less inviting destination for the best talent, the talent will find home elsewhere. This might be beginning of the end of US tech dominance.

That's a long road. Very few tech firms generate the kind of money from tech abroad like many US firms do. You won't be earning 300k in a non-US company in Germany very very likely when looking at similarly-levelled roles (to exclude high-powered roles) compared to the US. You'll be looking at 1/3rd the total comp max in many cases and that'll already be a very good salary in the field. And possibly higher taxes, no…

The comp only matters if you can actually come to the US and have reasonable life, right? There are over 500,000 people living in the US for a decode or more and still waiting to get permanent residence. They're vulnerable to capricious policies like we saw today. I know many personally who are actively looking at moving away, salaries not withstanding.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#658

Post by noip » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 2:42 AM UTC

sixothree wrote: post #261

dx87 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If H-1B visas were being used how they were intended, they would be a good thing, but we often see them used as a way to get cheap labor, or even directly replace American workers. The company I work at has H-1B junior web developers, hardly "very niche, hard to fill" positions that they can't find any qualified Americans to do.

We have h1b employees at our company. If we were to lose them right now it would be a significant disruption. Personally, I can't take time out of my job to train employees - which in our case could easily take three months. I can't even imagine us finding and hiring some at this time. These guys are an absolute asset to the company.

You can always do what companies like yours have already done to residents: Have the H1B visa holders train the residents, and leave the H1B visa holders out of a job. Does that sound unpleasant to you? Trust me, anyone on the shorter end of any stick isn't going to like it. My question is, why preference H1B holders over residents?

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#659

Post by sixothree » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 3:28 AM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #496

sixothree wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have h1b employees at our company. If we were to lose them right now it would be a significant disruption. Personally, I can't take time out of my job to train employees - which in our case could easily take three months. I can't even imagine us finding and hiring some at this time. These guys are an absolute asset to the company.

Does your company not already grow skills over time? One should already be training (or coaching) individuals regardless of their present skill levels.

We grow skills. That's one reason they are so valuable. And we cross train. Everyone is able to take over for another employee at any time. But now is not the time. I just can't stomach losing our H1B members or any dev right now.

We are in the health IT sector and you may not know this (because it surprises most everyone) but there is an absolute revolution happening in healthcare. We're approaching version 5 of FHIR. And I'd guess 99% of the devs on HN are like "what the heck is FHIR". It's a core standard for exchanging healthcare data. And it's literally the tip of an iceberg. And that's my personal dilemma as a lead developer.

Speaking of skill growth, devs attended FHIR Dev Days last week, CCDA Implementation-athon a few weeks before that, and the FHIR Connectathon a week before that.

None of us are in the office and since we have formed personal relationships over the last few years we know how to "get stuff done". AFAIK we treat every employee well enough they have few reasons to leave. Now is not the time for us to lose a dev. Any dev.

I just ask the government to stop being jerks and let us ride out this covid year without too much more upset...

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#660

Post by sixothree » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 3:35 AM UTC

noip wrote: post #658

sixothree wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have h1b employees at our company. If we were to lose them right now it would be a significant disruption. Personally, I can't take time out of my job to train employees - which in our case could easily take three months. I can't even imagine us finding and hiring some at this time. These guys are an absolute asset to the company.

You can always do what companies like yours have already done to residents: Have the H1B visa holders train the residents, and leave the H1B visa holders out of a job. Does that sound unpleasant to you? Trust me, anyone on the shorter end of any stick isn't going to like it. My question is, why preference H1B holders over residents?

I'm not sure you're making an argument in good faith here.

Still feel free to see my response just below. That said I'm not management but our devs are smart and knowledgeable and I'm sure are getting offers from other companies. And I like to think they are treated well and I hope I get to work with them for a long time to come.