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The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

theatlantic.com

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Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#141

Post by MisterBastahrd »

mikece wrote: post #59
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

"having a debate" != "teaching a class" > The "debate" on racism was lost a long time ago. When is the last time you asked someone who is a strident racist to explain their ideas in the form of a full essay or 30 minute presentation? Have you ever seen this done without the implicit or explicit assertion that the target of their animus is a lesser human or perhaps not human at all? Anyone with two brain cells to rub…

We have Youtube, and you can go there and watch Bill Buckley make all the same stupid assumptions racists do and have them demolished by James Baldwin.

The problem with modern debates is that they are not honest representations of the subject matter. They are exercises in tactical bullshit, meant to be rapid-fire, points-winning pseudo-arguments instead of constructive, intellectual discussions of the subject matter.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#142

Post by Spooky23 »

dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

Many of these arguments boil down to "those damn lazy kids these day". Being in a learning focused environment has value. I have a dual CS/History bachelor's degree. The analysis/rhetoric and writing skills that I built with the History side of my education are at least as valuable to me as the CS skillsets.

I'd go back and challenge original implication of the article, that university is absurd, like a CD. Characterizing a CD as absurd is pretty short sighted -- it's the standard buy vs. rent argument. If you've ever followed a sport that has been in the middle of a cable contract dispute, the downside of the stream is obvious -- broadcasting is awesome until it isn't.

I still buy music CDs or iTunes tracks. Access to an unlimited catalog doesn't do much for me, and owning perpetual rights is, to me, a better value, as it is for many things. That doesn't mean that streaming is "bad", just as online learning isn't "bad". But universities aren't obsolete because other options exist.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#143

Post by battery423 »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #135
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your specific experience is great, and I'm glad for you. The point here, however, is what University is for all people, not just for individual cases like yours where things align nicely, and where maybe your own character and personality (and some of your professors and class mates) helped you get a meaningful experience out of it. My personal opinion is that the article is mostly right about what doesn't make sense…

> The point here, however, is what University is for all people Traditionally, that was not true and still is not true in places like Germany. A university is the place where you can get the highest education of a field, or ideally where you study a field on your own. Both requires a lot of prerequisites that not everybody fulfills. I am talking about knowledge, ability to learn although something is not flashy, and…

University should still be open to everyone. Everyone should, independently from where they are and how rich they are, be able to study on an university if they are capable to do so.

I believe that:

1. the entry barrier is not fair and designed for a very straight funnel you either fit through or not.

2. If you would open up an university even more and you don't allow anyone to missuse it (by sleeping at the university, playing games instead of listing, getting money while attending but not caring for it) it would not have any downsight but might allow one or other mind being part of it.

I also have the feeling that people which were able to go through a bad university, already don't mind it anymore and don't care to optimize because it worked for them. We are not a poor soceity anymore and we have plenty of experience and technology. Its the duty of the university to try to help as many people as possible to learn the stuff you learn at the university. University is being paid by all people.

Its also the reason why OpenAccess should be mandatory.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#144

Post by Jarwain »

FrobozzElectric wrote: post #93
dougmwne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never shied away from interviewing a person without a degree, and honestly tried to never count that as a mark against a person since making it in the professional world without a degree is a challenge that I think shows a certain character. A lot of doors are just closed by default and that can be tough on a person's sense of self-worth. That said, I think the degree holders were better candidates usually, but I s…

> have a healthy respect for authority, and can delay gratification in the extreme. What does these qualities have to do with being a effective software developer? > The degree acts to filter out people who are too independent to fit well within a hierarchy. Wouldn't people that fall into the category of "free-thinkers" make for better engineers — or at least engineers that are more capable at creating novel solution…

One isn't Always creating novel solutions to hard problems. Sometimes there's boring work that Has to get done; respect for authority (understanding that the boring stuff Needs to be done) and delaying gratification (working on the boring stuff) is thus useful.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#145

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #80
pm90 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism appears in many forms, identifying that is not as straightforward as it might appear to be. Debating Racism would probably include many of the ways in which racist behaviors manifest themselves, which isn’t clear from the get go. Eg we now know that certain policies such as redlining, war on drugs and harsher criminal sentences affected minority communities disproportionately. Were these policies racist? The c…

Those are great topics of research. But platforming racists as just people with different ideas is a false equivalency.

What would you call racism, then, if not a different idea?

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#146

Post by tomonl »

conjecTech wrote: post #121
Scarblac wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which university was that?

It's likely the Technical University of Munich based on the hyperloop piece. Though I had to do a double take because it sounded incredibly similar to some of my experiences at Georgia Tech. If you want to know the kinds of universities that do these kinds of things and do them well, its useful to look up some of the student design competitions and see who regularly attends. From recollection, MIT, CMU, Olin, Dolhous…

Sounds similar to Delft University of Technology too.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#147

Post by watwut »

FrobozzElectric wrote: post #93
dougmwne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never shied away from interviewing a person without a degree, and honestly tried to never count that as a mark against a person since making it in the professional world without a degree is a challenge that I think shows a certain character. A lot of doors are just closed by default and that can be tough on a person's sense of self-worth. That said, I think the degree holders were better candidates usually, but I s…

> have a healthy respect for authority, and can delay gratification in the extreme. What does these qualities have to do with being a effective software developer? > The degree acts to filter out people who are too independent to fit well within a hierarchy. Wouldn't people that fall into the category of "free-thinkers" make for better engineers — or at least engineers that are more capable at creating novel solution…

Delayed gratification means that you are willing to work on tasks that are not immediately fun or are frustrating or when manager is not looking. It means that you are more likely to keep doing tasks whose benefit is in the future (like writing tests). It means that you dont need pat on the back and managerial supervision so often to keep motivating.

Lack of healthy respect for authority typically means more fights about who will do which task and more likely to unilaterally refuse to follow random parts of code standards. It may mean refusal to close jira tasks or open them. It may mean that analysts have much harder time to convince that one person to do what is needed, again.

Software development is typically strongly team work and requires quite a lot of coordination among people with opinions. When one person decides he does not accept authority of analyst, architect or manager, yes there are consequences for whole team.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#148

Post by olegious »

Like many things in life, this isn't a black and white issue. Higher education isn't for everyone, some people benefit greatly, for others it is a waste of time and money. It shouldn't be a requirement for moving up in life but one of the options. There should be different paths for acquiring the skills required to advance in life. For some it should be university level higher education programs, for others it should be vocational schools and apprenticeships, etc.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#149

Post by throwawaygh »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #135
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your specific experience is great, and I'm glad for you. The point here, however, is what University is for all people, not just for individual cases like yours where things align nicely, and where maybe your own character and personality (and some of your professors and class mates) helped you get a meaningful experience out of it. My personal opinion is that the article is mostly right about what doesn't make sense…

> The point here, however, is what University is for all people Traditionally, that was not true and still is not true in places like Germany. A university is the place where you can get the highest education of a field, or ideally where you study a field on your own. Both requires a lot of prerequisites that not everybody fulfills. I am talking about knowledge, ability to learn although something is not flashy, and…

I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities.

Most people who go to university in the USA, go to what would be closer to a Fachhochschule. Smaller colleges and universities that don't grant PhDs and whose professors have research output is closer to "write a paper in the summer" than "run a research lab".

Most people who have negative views toward their university experience in the USA, I think, feel that way because they thought they were going to a Fachhochschule but actually went to a university (or vice versa).

I don't quite understand how the USA can look at our education system, look around the world, and then conclude that technology will be our salvation. No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#150

Post by Touche »

randomdata wrote: post #26
Touche wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the #1 thing I got out of college was critical thinking. History and philosophy are where I learned that. Would it have come without college? Maybe, and certainly yes for some. I do worry about a learn-one-task education system and what that means for society at large.

With the degree attainment rate at only 30% in the US, a share that is similar in many countries around the world, the "learn-one-task education system" is what society at large is already accustomed to.

Is this an argument against my concern? I can't tell. I think poor education is a major issue in our (world) society and makes people more vulnerable to things like disinformation which is rampant today.
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