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The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

theatlantic.com

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Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#71

Post by pm90 »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57
mikece wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the benefits of a college setting would be the gathering together of young intelligent people and exposing them not only to new ideas but how to evaluate, value, and compare ideas for their relative worth. I wonder how much open and free debate of ideas even exists anymore, having given way to the inculcation and indoctrination of "correct ideas." I have long believed that the best way to eradicate racism is t…

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

Racism appears in many forms, identifying that is not as straightforward as it might appear to be. Debating Racism would probably include many of the ways in which racist behaviors manifest themselves, which isn’t clear from the get go. Eg we now know that certain policies such as redlining, war on drugs and harsher criminal sentences affected minority communities disproportionately. Were these policies racist?

The current President doesn’t want immigrants from African countries but is ok with immigrants from Norway. Is that racist?

And so, the debate over racism won’t be over for a while.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#72

Post by knolax »

Every time I see articles like this I can only assume the writer either majored in CS or in a humanities major that doesn't involve any physical work. If you study any sort of science or engineering you will find that even the simplest equipment used in lab classes cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars. Cost aside, you simply can not trust an undergrad to run a centrifuge without in-person training.

People also highly over-estimate the cost and speed of self teaching. Personally, I learned more in my introductory Mechanical Engineering courses freshman year than I did in all my attempts at self-teaching. This of course doesn't even include the subjects I did not even know about before. There is an overhead cost per subject to self-teaching, and I've yet to see anyone self-teach themselves the number of subjects that a typical undergrad education involves.

College is also the first time someone finds themselves in the company of enough competent people to, say, do an engineering or CS group assignment that doesn't involve major hand holding.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#73

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

stinkytaco wrote: post #24
dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

I've hired people, but wouldn't say I have a great deal of experiencing in the area, so here's an honest question for you: do candidates with a college education perform better at their jobs? In my (limited) experience the answer is definitely yes. Not only do they have more exposure to the concepts we need them to understand (if not necessarily the specific tools), we have just had better luck with them as employees…

It depends.

There's probably a survivorship bias of some sort.

You're probably not interviewing for someone to write a bleeding edge piece of software, so you're probably looking for someone who's capable of showing up, writing some code and not killing anyone.

I've found the reason people got the degree to be a bit more telling. The best performers were those who felt their knowledge was limited and wanted to gain more of it. The worst performers were those who got the degree and thought the whole programming part was behind them.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#74

Post by dougmwne »

0d9eooo wrote: post #46
dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

As a former tenured professor I've been watching all of this with a bit of empathy, anxiety, concern, and schaudenfreude. Many of my best friends and colleagues are at the university and it still forms a huge part of my life. In speaking with many students and colleagues, one thing has struck me, which is that many of the current undergrads are enrolled because they want to get away from home. They want some true tra…

> One thing that's important to be mindful of is that this on-campus experience many of us remember is in many ways evaporating anyway.

I read here that you're not talking about the pandemic specifically, but of the increasing digitization of society as socializing, work, entertainment and education all go online. and you're right, this is a huge social issue that connects to mental health, social cohesion, political life, social skills gaps and how we relate to each other. It's a change we are crashing into without any idea of the consequences. And yes, maybe digitizing our formative coming of age experiences is a step too far, or maybe we just need VR tanks.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#75

Post by protomyth »

panzagl wrote: post #64
protomyth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a real struggle for us. The "doing" part of vocational education doesn't really work for at home because of the equipment needed. Its not like typical lecture classes, since it is damn hard to weld at home for example. Never mind the Commercial Drivers License Training which requires use of the simulator until we are confident you have the skill for the actual big rig. I would actually say vocational is much hard…

I'm going to be generous and assume by 'vocational' the parent meant in a CS sense (things like database and network configuration that you usually learn after college) and not in the broader sense (like welding and hair cutting where hands-on is the majority of the value).

Oh, well, sorry I got confused, but vocational has a very specific meaning in academics in the US and I guess its on my mind these days since this has been one of our big problems. I'm still hoping that there will be some industry acceptable solutions.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#76

Post by chadlavi »

bcgraham wrote: post #69
chadlavi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allow racists to explain their ideas and positions and the tenability of their position will be exposed for the naked fear and hatred that it is People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds. And anyway, there's tons of open and free debate on college campuses…

> People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds. The unstated assumption of this premise is that some people (never us, always others) cannot be trusted to make good decisions, and thus need to have their decisions made for them, for their own good. It advocates…

Saying it's a bad idea to invite racists to speak publicly about their racist ideologies on university campuses is human subjugation?

ok pal.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#77

Post by bachmeier »

bcgraham wrote: post #69
chadlavi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allow racists to explain their ideas and positions and the tenability of their position will be exposed for the naked fear and hatred that it is People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds. And anyway, there's tons of open and free debate on college campuses…

> People are pretty susceptible to passionate speech by charismatic figures; much more susceptible, in fact, than they are to facts. This just seems like an opportunity for racists to win hearts and minds. The unstated assumption of this premise is that some people (never us, always others) cannot be trusted to make good decisions, and thus need to have their decisions made for them, for their own good. It advocates…

"The unstated assumption of this premise is that some people (never us, always others) cannot be trusted to make good decisions, and thus need to have their decisions made for them, for their own good."

You can make good decisions if you have full information and you put a lot of time into it. I hope you're aware that not all racists are dedicated to the search for truth. Sometimes they tell partial truths, mislead, and lie.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#78

Post by jfengel »

stinkytaco wrote: post #29
jfengel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may well be impossible to walk back what has happened to universities. Large institutions move slowly. There are too many stakeholders. Even when they can change, it's inevitable that forces will resist the change, resulting in half-measures. So it may well be more expeditious to start over. There are many other models, and if nothing else, whatever success those models have will provide more capacity. That may al…

> So it may well be more expeditious to start over. There are many other models, and if nothing else, whatever success those models have will provide more capacity. That may also draw away students and force them to lower prices. Don't you think the process of starting over is already underway? We've ha alternate training and evaluation methods (certifications, MOOCs, and vocational schools) for a long time. What do…

What I mean is something that receives more of the cachet of universities. As you say, we've had MOOCs and similar for a long time, but you're still going to have a hard time being employed with just that, especially for the best-paying jobs. They connote somebody who can do mechanical work but without creativity or communications skills.

My suggestion would be to promote those "soft" skills without the overhead of overhead of buildings, a football team, dining halls, etc. You can discuss literature, history, writing, etc. online almost as well as you can do it in person. Those are the things that differentiate a prestigious 4-year degree from a vo-tech or 2-year degree, and it's the prestige that has ultimately driven people's willingness to pay so much for university. (Well, that and some dishonesty and poorly-thought-out policy when it comes to student loans.)

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#79

Post by k2xl »

0d9eooo wrote: post #46
dougmwne wrote: post #16

I was having another one of those moments yesterday where I was questioning the value of higher education while reading a HN thread about teaching yourself CS. There was a healthy debate about whether the typical CS curriculum helps a modern software engineer at all. Some thought the degree was stuck back in the 70's. Others thought there was value, but had trouble articulating it. It seems that when the information…

As a former tenured professor I've been watching all of this with a bit of empathy, anxiety, concern, and schaudenfreude. Many of my best friends and colleagues are at the university and it still forms a huge part of my life. In speaking with many students and colleagues, one thing has struck me, which is that many of the current undergrads are enrolled because they want to get away from home. They want some true tra…

This is a wonderful comment, thank you.

The most valuable part of college for me (I can say now a decade later from graduating) had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with the experience and connections I made.

My professor helped me land my first job. My classmates ended up in the industry and helped connect me to opportunities and some became (so far) lifelong friends.

This would have been much less likely if I took online courses while living with my parents.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#80

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

pm90 wrote: post #71
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

Racism appears in many forms, identifying that is not as straightforward as it might appear to be. Debating Racism would probably include many of the ways in which racist behaviors manifest themselves, which isn’t clear from the get go. Eg we now know that certain policies such as redlining, war on drugs and harsher criminal sentences affected minority communities disproportionately. Were these policies racist? The c…

Those are great topics of research. But platforming racists as just people with different ideas is a false equivalency.
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