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Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

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Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#591

Post by pascalxus »

dfischer wrote: post #520
x87678r wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already invests heavily in education. USA already spends ones of the highest level of funding per school pupil in the world and for college its by far the highest spender. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_cmd.pdf

It's easy to spend a lot of money, it's hard to execute and get results. Despite the USA spending a ton of money, it doesn't curate quality education. The entire system needs to be reworked.

Why is everyone so convinced that we're getting "low quality education"? I've grown up here and went to "bad schools" and "good schools" and I have not seen any quality problem in education other than what subject matters are being taught and not taught.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#592

Post by ChristianBundy »

gorbachev15 wrote: post #134
ChristianBundy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you a nationalist?

I think each nation[0] should be entitled to make decisions for themselves and have a right to run their state the way they see fit. I wouldn't presume to move to, say, Japan and then start telling them that they're doing things wrong. [0] https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation

Are you linking to "a politically organized body of people under a single government" or "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language"?

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#593

Post by fredfoobar »

SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #560
fredfoobar wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think someone from a collectivist culture will never be able to understand the motivations of someone from an individualistic culture, I believe it's a pretty deep seated blindness. I can't help you, rather, we can't help each other, you just have to be in the right region of the globe that supports your intrinsic culture. [1] > which stuntnts the growth of these countries and yes you do increase the misery o…

What does it have to do with individualism or collectivism? Why are you bringing an opinion of Sapolsky as if he was an important person? What I am telling that the current H1B system in US does not benefit anyone exception for the employer and probably enslaved employee. The original motivation behind the program is decent - let the really outstanding specialists to develop more (as US provides more opportunities fo…

> What does it have to do with individualism or collectivism? Why are you bringing an opinion of Sapolsky as if he was an important person?

This proves my point, you think like a collectivist, the individual doesn't matter much to you. Besides, the reason I posted that article is because I wanted to give you some reference to understand the construct I'm talking about (a bit of "meta" so to speak), so that you can orient your thinking and it didn't have anything to do with Sapolsky or his "importance" (seems like this matters to you more than actual facts). It seems like you're a collectivist AND not intellectually curious (they usually go hand in hand though).

Your grammar and "philosophy" sounds very Asian. Most of your thinking revolves around "for the greater good (of the country)". Your determination of the "border" for benefiting from "greater good" seems arbitrary, why not the whole world?

As an individualist, my advice to you is: do whatever feels right to you. If you're truly for the greater good of the country, who are you to decide what the country has to do? and why should I care about your opinion? whats the proof that what you say is actually happening?

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#594

Post by fredfoobar »

runawaybottle wrote: post #491
fredfoobar wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also to your last point, this is something no one can prove. How am I going to prove that a company can hire that talent locally? They’ll just say they met with candidates and they weren’t up to snuff. You can’t prove anything in that situation, all you can really do is look at the numbers from a bird’s eye view and see that hey, over half your staff is world class rare talent apparently. So, you're telling me that…

> So, you're telling me that they're gonna pay the same amount they'd pay for a local employee PLUS the H1-B overhead, just to hire a foreign worker? For the most part, sure, it should be cost prohibitive. I think companies should go out and find the best talent, they should try to do it locally, and if they can’t, paying the little overhead is nothing when you realize you just filled the role with world class talent…

Most of the companies you speak of are multi-national companies providing their services world-wide, why should google, a service that is offered to the whole world ONLY have employees who're born in America, while their service is used across the world?

Lets be honest, a country's wealth is determined by how widespread the customer base is for the goods and services that originate within it. Economies of a majority of countries aren't closed loops, they're built on trade, selling goods and services that the rest of the world would pay a premium for would make it wealthy.

Considering that, it's only fitting that they would want to hire world-class talent.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#595

Post by shuckles »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #526
shuckles wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If globalization and automation are so good at job creation, why did the American horse buggy workforce collapse?

Because it was outdated technology, that’s not even what you are talking about. You’re talking about a fundamental change in technology, not production methods (automation) or market/labor expansion (globalization). Frankly, I’m not sure what point you’re even trying to make.

Fair enough, replace a disrupted technology with census tabulators who were automated. My point stands: you can't look at job losses in the affected industry to tell the whole story. You have to look at jobs in the economy at large. Automation leads to new demands elsewhere, and so does globalization.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#596

Post by david38 »

hintymad wrote: post #446
codelord wrote: post #313

Disclaimer: I'm an immigrant. There are companies like Cognizant/InfoSys/Tata/... whose business model is based on abusing the H1B system, and that's obviously wrong and I'm quite surprised they get away with it. I'm not defending that. To those who broadly argue against skilled visas, consider this: Most H1B immigrants are between 20-30 age range. The prime age to join the workforce. Think how much investment you ha…

I know this will probably be flagged or voted down, but at least please understand that I truly want to see people in the US get better and more equal. Here it goes: if the US wants to invest in local talent, the US had better invest heavily in education. And I'm not talking about an-iPad-per-kid kind of investment, but investment to hire great teachers, lots of them, to public schools to the point that tutoring scho…

Yes, put money into edu but that’s very different from giving teachers more money. Teachers do relatively little. The major influence is parents.

You need to change the cultural mindset. You need to build more colleges. Computer science programs are already maxed out. You need more professors.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#597

Post by hintymad »

pascalxus wrote: post #589
hintymad wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this will probably be flagged or voted down, but at least please understand that I truly want to see people in the US get better and more equal. Here it goes: if the US wants to invest in local talent, the US had better invest heavily in education. And I'm not talking about an-iPad-per-kid kind of investment, but investment to hire great teachers, lots of them, to public schools to the point that tutoring scho…

Why are people so quick to always blame teachers? What makes you think throwing even more money at the problem will make things better? Growing up in a poor area, I went to some of the "worst" schools you can imagine (one even had to get shut down) and I had one of the most inspiring history teachers there, that I still remember to this day. And all the other teachers were great too. It's not the fault of the teacher…

No, I'm not blaming teachers for all the disciplinary problems in school. I am blaming bad teachers for squandering time of ordinary kids -- kids like me who have a shot if pushed and educated properly.

You're lucky to have great teachers, and I just think we need more of such kind. As for bad schools, let me give you a few examples and you can check out the documentary Waiting For "Superman" to get a more grim picture.

- Did you know that teachers in some Cupertino schools asked parents to grade student homework?

- Did you know that a straight-A student who graduated high school in NYC couldn't pass the math placement exam in The City College of New York? I mean, placement test in a college, how hard could that be, right? The story was featured in NYT, IIRC, a few years ago.

- Did you know that only 48% of public school students who took the California Assessment of Student Performance and Progress (CAASPP) met or exceeded grade-level standard in 2016. And we're talking about CAASPP, a standard that is really not that high.

- Did you know that SAT is not differentiating to say the least, yet the average score of SAT math in California is merely 536. Pathetic, shall we say?

- Did you know that elite students in the Bay Area routinely completed more than 10 AP classes, yet the average students could barely understand Algebra 1?

And now let me give a few counter examples to show what good teachers can do to students:

1. All 14 students in Jaime Escalante's class passed AP Calculus I back in 1982, even though the school was in a hood. The success was so shocking that people thought the students cheated.

2. KIPP. Merely extending the school time to 6:00pm and offering classes in summer helped students stay in school and make steady progress towards entering college.

3. Schools in other countries. Take the schools in China, for instance. Teachers enforce cultures. Great scientists and philosophers and writers become household names because of them. They form research groups to continuously improve teaching materials. Better ways to teach, better problem sets, better projects, and better exams. It is widely assumed that teachers are better problem solvers than students in China. Can we assume that in the US?

By the way, a student doing well in standard test may not be a good student, but a student who does not do well in standard test is definitely not good academically. I don't really see why people keep blaming standard test for student's miserable scores. Do we really think these students could solve much harder free-form problems when they can't eve deal with much easier standard test? There is a reason that multiple-choice problems are the easiest ones in other country's college entrance exams. It suffices to say that if students in a school couldn't even pass standard tests, then the school has failed the students.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#598

Post by awarmteacup2020 »

ReticentVole wrote: post #507
bdcravens wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of what you say is true, but it's important to realize the H1-B is not designed with any of those benefits in mind. Its only purpose is to fill roles where there is no local talent.

The H1B is also not designed to support diversity or equality, which is crucial if we consider it a stepping-stone to long-term immigration (which many people want). It would seem reasonable to place an intake limit of 10% from any one country, and limiting males to a maximum of 49%. Right now, lets be honest, the H1B is giant immigration scheme for Indian males to get into the USA: 75% of applicants are Indian, and…

The US could go all-in and treat the H1b program as a diversity program. The background of every candidate would be examined, and a deliberate effort would be made to amplify the most marginalized of communities.

India holds 17% of the world's population. Any program that is designed for diversity would have a 15-20% Indian population. That is much smaller than the current number, and in fact it would be a fairly different set of Indians: victims of sexism, casteism, "colorism", etc.

This could work out pretty well. Indian social inequalities would be reduced, US tech companies would get an infusion of extremely diverse workers on strong career tracks. If you believe that diversity is good for the workforce, this would be a huge boost.

But the straight/cis/brahmin/male Indians would get mad.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#599

Post by diebeforei485 »

amznthrowaway5 wrote: post #512
diebeforei485 wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure- but there is never going to be a perfect policy. Facebook Engineering typically hires people with degrees from great programs, or great prior experience. But most of the "IT" work done by InfoSys and others are things that can practically be done by Americans as well. It would take training, but it wouldn't take a degree from a top university. So - companies like InfoSys and Tata are a good place to start.

Sure, but the big corp issue should also be addressed. Do you really believe a lot of big corp work couldn’t be done by other Americans? People like Zuck aren’t advocating for more h1bs under current rules out of the goodness of their hearts.

You have to start somewhere. The best place to start is with jobs that Americans can be more easily trained for.

Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year

#600

Post by freehunter »

javagram wrote: post #391
freehunter wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do these programs always seem to target the worker, but not the employer? Enforcement of illegal immigration always seems to have the immigrants arrested and deported, but what about the people who hired the illegal workers? H-1B visa holders get blamed for "competing against permanent residents" but where's the blame for companies who hire H-1B workers over American citizens? We live in a capitalist economy whic…

> So if there are too many H-1B holders competing with Americans, why not make it harder for companies to hire them over an equally qualified America This is literally what the H-1B visa program does, it makes companies jump through hoops to hire someone from overseas. The path of least resistance is definitely hiring a citizen where they don’t need to worry about getting a visa.

Then how is the H-1B visa system a problem? It it's working as intended and making it harder to hire someone from overseas, where is the problem?
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