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Ghoti

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Re: Ghoti

#211

Post by matheusmoreira »

xenator wrote: post #73
livealife wrote: post #4

One of the core problems of English language.

Most interesting problem of English language is that it is not direct. Good example is small talks. In many cultures direct question assume direct answer. If somebody asks you "how are you" you kinda obligated to give response with your real feelings and events happened to you last time. In USA mostly every stranger can start this conversation and expect only unsalted response. This tradition is much deeper than you…

In English school I was taught that when someone asks "How do you do?" the appropriate response is to also ask "How do you do?". Neither speaker gives or expects an answer to the question.

Re: Ghoti

#212

Post by 082349872349872 »

wirrbel wrote: post #91
dgellow wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and get rid of the `ß/ss` mess. Swiss Standard German got rid of ß :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Standard_German

yeah, but they didn't get rid of the mess, they kind of made it harder for German-learners to pronounce a written word (in comparison to the post-reform federal german spelling). i.e. "Fuß" vs swiss "Fuss" Swiss spelling makes it appear as if "Fuss" (with a long u) could be pronounced like "Nuss" (with a short u), whereas standard German "Fuß" is clear on that. Prior to the German spelling reform, Nuss was also writt…

Fuss is because we have both french è é à and german ü ö ä on our keyboards, so we don't have room for ß.

Luckily for shell scripting, $ is unshifted (shifted would be £. I far prefer USD GBP CHF etc.)

(nonante-neuf > quatre-vingt-dix-neuf. Fais-moi changer d'avis :-) )

Re: Ghoti

#213

Post by jevfdhwdlpp »

dmoy wrote: post #175
hpkuarg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a native speaker of English, either, though with perfect American fluency. I find myself switching to "international English" in those contexts. Actually, the word "international" is a good example -- in my regular American accent it would be pronounced like "innernational", whereas I would distinguish the T when conversing with non-native speakers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping TL;DR, it's not actually "innernational", but rather an alveolar flap on the t that you have a hard time distinguishing between depending on where you grew up.

Actually, according to the link you’ve provided, it seems that’s an alveolar “nasal” flap, which sounds different to American ears from the regular alveolar flap. It would sound like “itternational” pronounced by an American if an alveolar flap were to be used.

Re: Ghoti

#214

Post by zzo38computer »

It is correct the English spelling is really messy. Maybe, it is because they use Latin alphabets; Latin alphabets are good for writing in Latin (and, I suppose, Romantic languages), but for English perhaps isn't as good; but, it is what we have now, so it is what we are going to do. Germanic (futhorc) alphabets might be better way for writing English, maybe.

Re: Ghoti

#215

Post by SenHeng »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #147
SenHeng wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants in Japan have the same experience too. We often make the same mistakes and thus have a shared understanding of misunderstandings . I would expect immigrants in other places appphave similar experiences too.

A friend of mine spent a few months in Japan, and he said the strangest part was learning that speaking simple, slower English with a strong Japanese accent was often better for getting around than using his broken Japanese.

That’s not surprising. I myself have a lot of trouble understanding the way some foreigners speak Japanese because of the mangled pronunciations.

Re: Ghoti

#216

Post by timonoko »

In Lapland you can often see Germans and Finns use particularly "phonetic" English. The writing system is similar, so it is easier to pronounce words as they are written, instead of trying some fancy Hollywood way.

This might be the future of spoken English as most other languages have same wholesome writing system, and thus there are no ambiguities.

Re: Ghoti

#217

Post by timthorn »

petercooper wrote: post #156
egypturnash wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American English speakers can have trouble understanding British English speakers too, fwiw. Mostly due to some dramatically different slang and pronunciation rather than use of more obscure words though.

I worked in California for a while and something that kept throwing people off was that I pronounce my "t"s in the English way rather than drop them to "d"s. So it's buTTer and not 'budder', thirTy not 'thirdy', etc. Once I started dropping them to "d"s too, things improved significantly, and I can see why a lot of British YouTubers and geeks develop this 'trans-Atlantic' affectation. Another funny one I ran into a f…

I also had that problem with the "ew" sound. I'm never understood if I ask for a "Mountain Dew" - I have to translate to "Mountain Doo" even when the context of a drink is clear.

The other one is asking for a cheese sandwich - that seems to throw Americans every time.

Re: Ghoti

#218

Post by rachelshu »

jcranmer wrote: post #165
tom_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riiiiight, so obviously you personally have no problems with the spelling rules of English (which do, in general, exist, contrary to popular belief). But, we need to ask ourselves: if it is at all conceivable that "ghoti" could be sounded out as "fish", just what the fuck is going on here? Sure, you don't have a problem dealing with this nonsense - I don't have one neither! But I struggle to believe that you've faile…

Do you object to the fact that the spelling "th" invariably means /þ/ or /ð/, and not /th/? Or mapping "sh" to /ʃ/ and not /sh/? I highly doubt you do. Here's the thing: spelling rules are context-sensitive, and if you actually understand the underlying sound rules, spelling in English is often not that bad. For example, there is a fricatization process for /t/ and /s/ sounds convert to a /ʃ/ or a /ʒ/--this is how "-…

"th" is occasionally /th/, for example in the compound word "hothouse".

Re: Ghoti

#219

Post by [deleted] »

petercooper wrote: post #156
egypturnash wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American English speakers can have trouble understanding British English speakers too, fwiw. Mostly due to some dramatically different slang and pronunciation rather than use of more obscure words though.

I worked in California for a while and something that kept throwing people off was that I pronounce my "t"s in the English way rather than drop them to "d"s. So it's buTTer and not 'budder', thirTy not 'thirdy', etc. Once I started dropping them to "d"s too, things improved significantly, and I can see why a lot of British YouTubers and geeks develop this 'trans-Atlantic' affectation. Another funny one I ran into a f…

[deleted]

Re: Ghoti

#220

Post by [deleted] »

glenngillen wrote: post #113
dakiol wrote: post #50

As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…

I grew up in Australia, so would have considered myself a native English speaker. We’re even a British colony! I moved to Scotland for a year, and London for a few years later. I’d regularly here phrasing I’d never heard before and would need the speaker to clarify or would look up later. In the vast majority of those cases it was most often an old word that appears to have fallen out of fashionable usage. “Ken” bein…

[deleted]
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