I thought this was about Eastern and Western Bengali at first.
Ghoti
71–80 of 248 posts
Re: Ghoti
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Given the variation amongst different varieties of English, a phonetically-based reform would be tricky. Spanish has managed to do that. It has as much variety in its dialects as English (e.g. some dialects have very different "c" and "s" sounds or "b" and "v" sounds while others don't), yet all in all the orthography is quite regular and phonetic.
That's regular but not phonetic. (I'm not fully convinced that Spanish has quite as much variation as English, but I'll admit I'm not expert on Spanish.) But what do you do when certain segments are not just pronounced differently, but completely absent in some varieties? (E.g. my example about /kɑ:/ vs /kɑ:r/)
Let alone "absent in some varieties", there are sounds that are absent in all varieties but still spelled (e.g. the h in hombre or the u in queso). There was an attempt to regularize that in Latin America but the countries that tried to adopt it reverted back to the old spelling[1] - I guess the same will happen if someone tries to "reform" English
Re: Ghoti
#73One of the core problems of English language.
Most interesting problem of English language is that it is not direct. Good example is small talks. In many cultures direct question assume direct answer. If somebody asks you "how are you" you kinda obligated to give response with your real feelings and events happened to you last time. In USA mostly every stranger can start this conversation and expect only unsalted response. This tradition is much deeper than you think. On some lever you will never understand price for thing you buy, or will never get invite to the party or have no chance to get investment to your startup. And these games everywhere in English culture.
Re: Ghoti
#74As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…
[deleted]
Re: Ghoti
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a small category of words, at least in British English, that act as a fairly effective shibboleth when it comes to identify non-native speakers. Usually names for places, but not only: Glouchester, Worcester, Worcestershire, leftenant etc
Lots of place names in US that reveal not just non-native speakers but also native speakers that aren’t locals. Some that come to mind: Worcester, MA; Wilkes-Barre, PA; Versailles, KY; New Berlin, PA; and many others.
How you pronounce “New Orleans” can show not only whether or not you are a local, but which part of town you are from, and how old you are. I can think of at least four or five ways.
Re: Ghoti
#76Given the variation amongst different varieties of English, a phonetically-based reform would be tricky. E.g., should we spell 'car' as 'kar' or 'kaa'? (It's also worth mentioning that English spelling is position-dependent: there aren't any real words where 'gh' at the beginning is pronounced as 'f'.)
Typically language reforms "solve" this problem by standardizing on whatever dialect is considered most broadly prestigious (often the dialect of the capital city).
Re: Ghoti
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't need to go to an alternate Universe to find a place that uses a phonetic script and the metric system. Just go to India.
Germany had a spelling reform in the 90s that changed words to be spelled more phonetically rather than how they would have been spelled in their origin languages. For example "Delphin" (dolphin) became "Delfin" because German isn't Greek.
And even Greek uses a single letter for the "f" sound. The fact that "φ" is transliterated as "ph" is a historical accident: in ancient Greek the letter was pronounced like p with an extra puff of air, like in "Phuket".
Re: Ghoti
#78In teaching my young son to read I have become starkly aware at just how inconsistent English is. I never consciously realized how many ways there are to pronounce "ough". And not a single one makes sense. That said, I am amazed at how quickly he's figuring it all out.
Yeah, my four year old daughter is super into learning what words start with right now... I always feel so bad when I have to tell her she is wrong because of the weirdness of English.
Re: Ghoti
#79Concerning the spelling reform, is there any language that recently underwent a successful spelling reform? And by recent, I mean in the last 10 years. The thing is that with the widespread usage of the internet it seems harder to successfully reform the orthography of a language. Every language is, nowadays, in one way or another decentralized and uncontrolled by language authorities.
Portuguese had an orthography reform to unified how words were spelled and accentuated in the different countries that speak it.
It was defined in 1990, but actual implementation started in 2009 and was complete by 2016 in Brazil.
Actually, software — in particular autocorrect software, helped to spread the reformed spelling quite a bit in my opinion.
There is a section about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthog...
Re: Ghoti
#80As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…
I never thought of it this way. I'm American and I can understand fluent English speaking Europeans way better than I can understand British, unless that British person is from London. 70%? That's optimistic. I don't even think I am understanding words, only the most likely context in the flow of a conversation and the most likely way to react. Fluent Northern European English (Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Nort…
IME as an American, London British can be quite hard to understand, especially at a high word rate (which was my experience). Yes.. it.. turns.. out.. that.. speaking.. slowly.. does.. make.. it.. easier.. to.. understand.