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Ghoti

en.wikipedia.org

181–190 of 248 posts

Re: Ghoti

#181
post #5

> while ti would only resemble sh when followed by a vowel sound ("mention", "martian", "patient", "spatial"). ti isn't "sh" in "mention," it's "ch," at least in any dialect I'm aware of. Cf. slang for Twitter mentions, "menchies."

The letters "n" and "t" have the same place of articulation in this context so it's not surprising that might shift to in some dialects.

Re: Ghoti

#182
post #50

As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…

Plus, native speakers tend to use a lot more idiom. Which generally makes things much harder to understand (but arguably more fun) -- this is even quite noticeable when encountering English from different regions.

The distinctions in meaning, understanding, and nuance between vocabulary, grammar, and idiomatic or cultural grasp of a language are profound.

By analogy: elements, valance bonds, and van der Waals forces in chemistry. All matter, some are stronger, subtle variances can have profound differences.

Re: Ghoti

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head, "nigh" is a counterexample.

Yes, you are right. I should have said «..."ough" at the end of a word hints heavily ...» I am kind of pissed off how article attacks english language. Of course if you interpreter a letter without a context you will have silly results!

Imho I don't see it as attacking the English language, but rather an irregularity in it.

Re: Ghoti

#184

That is one of the reasons why I think Esperanto has too much more to offer to the World as an international language than English. I'm not an activist. Besides, I enjoy so many features of English. But the resources one must invest to learn it as a second language make it unreachable to a huge amount of people around the globe, providing breeding ground to the formation of "linguistic elites" and deepening social an…

Forget Esperanto, give Toki Pona a look

Are we there yet https://xkcd.com/927/?

Re: Ghoti

#185
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riiiiight, so obviously you personally have no problems with the spelling rules of English (which do, in general, exist, contrary to popular belief). But, we need to ask ourselves: if it is at all conceivable that "ghoti" could be sounded out as "fish", just what the fuck is going on here? Sure, you don't have a problem dealing with this nonsense - I don't have one neither! But I struggle to believe that you've faile…

Do you object to the fact that the spelling "th" invariably means /þ/ or /ð/, and not /th/? Or mapping "sh" to /ʃ/ and not /sh/? I highly doubt you do. Here's the thing: spelling rules are context-sensitive, and if you actually understand the underlying sound rules, spelling in English is often not that bad. For example, there is a fricatization process for /t/ and /s/ sounds convert to a /ʃ/ or a /ʒ/--this is how "-…

I don't object to anything, at least not when English spelling is involved. English spelling serves me well, as I don't have a problem with it, and there are people that look down on those that do. I'll let you do the 2x2.

Given how useful writing is, I just feel we should be asking ourselves whether any part of the process could be simplified.

Re: Ghoti

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American English speakers can have trouble understanding British English speakers too, fwiw. Mostly due to some dramatically different slang and pronunciation rather than use of more obscure words though.

I worked in California for a while and something that kept throwing people off was that I pronounce my "t"s in the English way rather than drop them to "d"s. So it's buTTer and not 'budder', thirTy not 'thirdy', etc. Once I started dropping them to "d"s too, things improved significantly, and I can see why a lot of British YouTubers and geeks develop this 'trans-Atlantic' affectation. Another funny one I ran into a f…

I’m from California and I had an Irish colleague there who, despite otherwise being amazingly well integrated, stuck to a hard “t” for certain cases of “th.”

So for instance if I might say “These three things,” he would say “these tree things.”

He was clearly able to make the sounds but in some cases he couldn’t. I never felt comfortable asking about it because I thought it might be a class thing.

Re: Ghoti

#187
post #81
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This spelling reform was pioneered by Mark Twain[1]. [1] http://www.i18nguy.com/twain.html

That attribution to Twain is bogus. I believe it started as a letter to the editor in some mid-20th century magazine. Let me see if I can dig up the citation. (Edit 2: the Economist came later! see downthread) Edit: the joke originated as a letter to the Economist in 1971: https://web.archive.org/web/20200807181810/https://lettersof... . The classic internet version (referencing the European Commission) was a later r…

Thanks.

Twain did write "On the Awful German Language", on which the false atribution likely leaned strongly.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Tramp_Abroad/Appendix_D

Re: Ghoti

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half eight in Swedish is 7:30 :-)

Same in Russian. I think it expands to "halfway to the eighth hour" and since 12:00-1:00 is the first hour, 7:00-8:00 is the eighth hour.

I think it's the same in German too. Halb sieben is 6:30.

Re: Ghoti

#190

This is because in English it's not always that you speak what you write. Pronunciation is different for the same letter in different cases. In some languages (mainly Indian) like Hindi, we speak what we write and we write what we speak i.e. Our letters have a definite and unique sounds.

That property is called phonemic orthography, and some examples include Finnish, Turkish and Esperanto.
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