Ghoti • Hacker News Board

Re: Ghoti

#91

Post by wirrbel » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #31

wirrbel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german, what I prefer about english spelling: * You do not capitalize Nouns in your Sentences which is means I don't have to analyse the lexical Structure of a Sentence while writting stuff. Stuff that is hard in English but rarely talked about because of the prominence of the phonetics-vs-traditional spelling: * hyphenation (fairly complex, basically one needs to look it up or rely on tooling in english, rarely…

> and get rid of the `ß/ss` mess. Swiss Standard German got rid of ß :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Standard_German

yeah, but they didn't get rid of the mess, they kind of made it harder for German-learners to pronounce a written word (in comparison to the post-reform federal german spelling).

i.e. "Fuß" vs swiss "Fuss"

Swiss spelling makes it appear as if "Fuss" (with a long u) could be pronounced like "Nuss" (with a short u), whereas standard German "Fuß" is clear on that.

Prior to the German spelling reform, Nuss was also written "Nuß" and back then the swiss way of spelling had the appeal of avoiding an extra character that is specific to the german language (and wasn't found on french typewriters for example).

What I meant was a spelling like "Fus, Füse, Nuss, Nüsse" but "Gras, Gräzer" (instead of Gras Gräser).

z would be the soft s-sound represented by s in traditional german spelling. s would be the hard s sound represented by ß or s in traditional german spelling.

Re: Ghoti

#92

Post by Koshkin » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

war1025 wrote: post #49

zwaps wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German, I recommend you take a look at Turkish. It's fantastic as there are zero exceptions. Learn the phonetics of each letter, and you can literally speak any word.

The trouble with any of these efforts is that pronunciation drifts over time. So eventually you end up in the same place again.

Plus, dialects.

Re: Ghoti

#93

Post by wirrbel » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

JadeNB wrote: post #61

wirrbel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german, what I prefer about english spelling: * You do not capitalize Nouns in your Sentences which is means I don't have to analyse the lexical Structure of a Sentence while writting stuff. Stuff that is hard in English but rarely talked about because of the prominence of the phonetics-vs-traditional spelling: * hyphenation (fairly complex, basically one needs to look it up or rely on tooling in english, rarely…

> punctuation, especially placement of commas If it's any consolation, in my experience, no two native English speakers can agree on where and how often commas are needed either.

exactly. That is not really desirable.

Also I think there is a ruleset that is just not really applied by most. That is problematic because it allows for people without good intentions to be strict marking up some students while being lenient with others (a double standard situation).

Re: Ghoti

#94

Post by _emacsomancer_ » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

thenewwazoo wrote: post #70

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's regular but not phonetic. (I'm not fully convinced that Spanish has quite as much variation as English, but I'll admit I'm not expert on Spanish.) But what do you do when certain segments are not just pronounced differently, but completely absent in some varieties? (E.g. my example about /kɑ:/ vs /kɑ:r/)

Apropos not much, I’m a native English speaker who is learning Spanish quite intensively, and I can say without a doubt that there is more variation across Spanish dialects than English. Different regions have hugely different lexicons, with many many different words for the same things. Just try to predict the word for “green pea” based on region! Learning Spanish is like learning 15 languages at once. It’s hilariou…

I wasn't talking about lexical variation though. (I also wonder how much experience you have with the wide range of English varieties: there's quite a bit of lexical variation.) Lexical variation is pretty irrelevant for spelling changes.

Re: Ghoti

#95

Post by Koshkin » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #88

war1025 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with any of these efforts is that pronunciation drifts over time. So eventually you end up in the same place again.

Indeed. A good example in English is Mary/marry/merry. Many speakers pronounce all three words identically, but many speakers distinguish them. Should the spelling be unified? Probably not, because they are three separate words that might sometimes sound the same in speech. Simplifying spelling removes any way of distinguishing them. English is filled with homophones, and while you can almost always figure out which…

At the other end of the spectrum, ‘row’ has two different pronunciations (each with its own meaning).

Re: Ghoti

#96

Post by _emacsomancer_ » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

tdeck wrote: post #76

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #24

Given the variation amongst different varieties of English, a phonetically-based reform would be tricky. E.g., should we spell 'car' as 'kar' or 'kaa'? (It's also worth mentioning that English spelling is position-dependent: there aren't any real words where 'gh' at the beginning is pronounced as 'f'.)

Typically language reforms "solve" this problem by standardizing on whatever dialect is considered most broadly prestigious (often the dialect of the capital city).

Yeah, we already did this quite a while ago.

In 2020, which capital will you choose? London, Delhi, D.C., Canberra, &c. &c.?

Re: Ghoti

#97

Post by franciscop » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

imglorp wrote: post #11

If this irritates anyone, you might be interested in the work of George Bernard Shaw and Kingsley Read to reform English spelling. They proposed a consistent, phonetic, spelling and writing system called Shavian and published a now-rare book using that system. The second iteration made some slight usability and efficiency improvements and called the new work Quikscript. Of course, in an alternate universe, this super…

In Spanish on my teen years, which saw the rise of SMS and MSN Messenger, it was very common to see a simplified version of Spanish, where "hola" became "ola" since the h is mute, and similar changes. It was a brief period though, since now everyone (my age) uses proper grammar, and younger generations use English mixed in instead.

Re: Ghoti

#98

Post by Koshkin » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

maest wrote: post #37

aledalgrande wrote: post #26

And natives still laugh when I pronounce a word wrong between the million others I say

There's a small category of words, at least in British English, that act as a fairly effective shibboleth when it comes to identify non-native speakers. Usually names for places, but not only: Glouchester, Worcester, Worcestershire, leftenant etc

Natives, on the other hand, tend to misspell (like you did ‘lieutenant’).

Re: Ghoti

#99

Post by jrockway » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

xenator wrote: post #73

livealife wrote: post #4

One of the core problems of English language.

Most interesting problem of English language is that it is not direct. Good example is small talks. In many cultures direct question assume direct answer. If somebody asks you "how are you" you kinda obligated to give response with your real feelings and events happened to you last time. In USA mostly every stranger can start this conversation and expect only unsalted response. This tradition is much deeper than you…

I think this depends on the intimacy of the two people having the conversation. "How are you?" does always yield a (grammatically) direct answer: "great!" "good" "fine, thank you!" "ok...", but which of these someone chooses depends on how much time the other person wants to spend talking about it. You are right that it is uncommon to ask "how are you" because the questioner wants a detailed assessment of your mental health. It is just a set greeting. "I greet you!" would work just as well in many cases.

Not going into any depth here is a proxy for the relationship not being very deep. When I check out with my groceries, "how are you" is always exchanged. I am sure that neither of us really care about the details, so the details aren't discussed. Similarly, the kind of person that you have this superficial relationship with isn't going to give you a special price, invite you to their party, or invest in your startup. That is a deeper relationship that has to be cultivated somehow. That is not unique to English, that's just how people work.

A related issue is how people try to avoid random conversations with strangers. The people you see on the sidewalk walking at a brisk pace, looking at their phone, never making eye contact, wearing noise cancelling headphones are sending a clear message that they do not want to have a random conversation with you.

Re: Ghoti

#100

Post by axaxs » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #75

pge wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of place names in US that reveal not just non-native speakers but also native speakers that aren’t locals. Some that come to mind: Worcester, MA; Wilkes-Barre, PA; Versailles, KY; New Berlin, PA; and many others.

How you pronounce “New Orleans” can show not only whether or not you are a local, but which part of town you are from, and how old you are. I can think of at least four or five ways.

Same for Louisville, generally speaking. FWIW, I'm a 'lulvul' guy.