Earlier quoted context omitted.
“Foreign nationals account for 81 percent of the full-time graduate students in electrical engineering, 79 percent in computer science, 75 percent in industrial engineering, 69 percent in statistics, 63 percent in mechanical engineering, 59 percent in civil engineering, and 57 percent in chemical engineering.” — https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/02/americas-stem-cri...
College courses aren't necessarily zero sum if SV would considering hiring from state universities.
Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
331–340 of 684 posts
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#332H1-B was intended for highly skilled workers that the US had a real shortage of. But now it's just being abused to bring in captive workers that are willing to accept lower wages and worse working conditions than otherwise while crowding out US workers. What if, instead of bowing to corporate greed which cares not a bit for our country or our people, we actually invested in our own population and trained them to do t…
I came to USA for education in 2008-09. Payed for my own education thanks to my parents and their sacrifice of lifetime savings. Did not take any govt funds for education. I graduated with a masters degree with Perfect 4.0 gpa . I worked my way up from financial crisis to working SV today. I have family, kids going to public school and also own a home. I don’t remember anytime taking a pay cut to stay in the country.…
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#333The Silicon Valley was built on the backs of H1-B workers. There’s the bay wouldn’t be the technical hub without access to the global workforce.
The biggest employers of H1-B workers have almost always been consulting companies, most of them located well outside the valley.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
Off-topic, but just a tip. "could of" is never correct (nor is "would of" or "should of").
Or could-have, which I think is more applicable in the sentence you're correcting. Or am I missing some obscure grammar rule?
I've never seen "could-have" (hyphenated) though. I don't think that's right either.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#335H1-B was intended for highly skilled workers that the US had a real shortage of. But now it's just being abused to bring in captive workers that are willing to accept lower wages and worse working conditions than otherwise while crowding out US workers. What if, instead of bowing to corporate greed which cares not a bit for our country or our people, we actually invested in our own population and trained them to do t…
You can look at the data, SV companies aren't paying H1B people low wages. Unless you think 200-300k is low wages.
I'm from a shithole European country full of white people. The experience in the US has been very positive. People treat me nicely, both in SV and in rural Ohio. SV companies pay me equivalently to Americans as far as I can tell by asking around (for reference, depending on bonus/stocks my total comp is 200k+, which is not FAANG but above average for my position). Sometimes more for the same job. If I were kicked off my H1B, I'd just go back to one of the richest countries in the world and be fine. There's a smooth path to the Green Card for me, like for any H1B holder except Indians and Chinese.
That's kind of where the crux is.
As part of my job I've traveled to quite a few large enterprises that were not in SV, and often they have entire buildings full of 90% Indian H1B bros. I think 50%+ of all H1Bs are awarded to Indian citizens. There is a absolute cap on the number of Green Cards that can be awarded to citizens of any one country per year. In addition, India has about 10000 billion times the population of my shithole EU country.
Subsequently, the wait for my Indian H1B bros to get their Green Card is now several decades (it is "none" or "a few months" for most others except I believe Chinese).
So the indentured servitude is not due to H1B per se, but because of its interaction with the Green Card program for my Indian H1B bros and maybe Chinese H1Bers as well.
As a shithole European I can switch jobs pretty easily. At worst, I have to wait a few years to finish the Green Card process, so the "indentured servitude" is limited to 2-3 years. It is up to individual companies to decide if they want to sponsor your Green Card, but all companies I'm familiar with in SV will do so for any of their H1B employees with no exceptions. This might not be the case for other companies. My Indian H1B bro co-workers are paid just as well and treated fairly. Of course, the SV companies can't get around the Green Card cap for them, so that's still problematic. But the companies I've seen do not abuse that fact.
But the SV H1B experience is probably the exception if you look at the statistics. My Indian H1B bros at Certain Major American Companies You Almost Certainly Do Business With All The Time aren't treated nearly as well. They get thrown specs across the wall by managers (often Indians themselves), any response is silenced. They are often in physically different buildings or on different floors from the other workers.
The work I did in SV felt creative, challenging, and I was always empowered to do my job as well as my American co-workers. But those H1B-with-no-path-to-residency farms seemed like authoritarian sweatshops. During one consulting gig with Bank You Most Likely Use Daily, we saw a guy get fired for accidentally pushing a private key to Github. The AC wouldn't get fixed in the H1B-building, so we worked in a sweltering 85 degrees all day. The restrooms were in despicable condition, getting cleaned maybe 2-3 times per week. For a remote call, I was offered a used pair of in-ear headphones with somebody else's ear wax still smeared onto them. I politely declined and bought my own pair. I would've quit this company after a few months. But none of the H1Bers there can do that, because of their legal limbo.
To say that these folks are not empowered is a vast understatement. And I do think some companies are abusing this fact.
It's a hard hole to dig out of now. I've seen estimates that if you were to remove the per-country-cap for Green Cards, the next 5 years worth of Green Cards would go entirely to Indian citizens. Is it "fair" that one country gets 50-70% of all work (not family) based Green Cards? Is it "fair" that an Indian H1B worker has to stay in legal limbo for 25 years just because other people from his country also want to immigrate?
It certainly feels to me like the current setup of the H1B-Green Card pipeline has created pretty terrible conditions for a large percentage, maybe the majority, of Indian H1B holders, which is most H1B holders.
Btw: I'm calling them my H1B bros because Indian developers are always super surprised to learn that I, a white guy, am on the same visa. We literally bond over our immigration status, which can be very helpful in consulting work.
Maybe my first hint that the Indian H1B experience is different should've come earlier: when I first landed in SFO and went through immigration, the officer looked at my H1B and said "Oh, I thought that visa was only for Indians." And this is in SV.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#336Disclaimer: I'm an immigrant. There are companies like Cognizant/InfoSys/Tata/... whose business model is based on abusing the H1B system, and that's obviously wrong and I'm quite surprised they get away with it. I'm not defending that. To those who broadly argue against skilled visas, consider this: Most H1B immigrants are between 20-30 age range. The prime age to join the workforce. Think how much investment you ha…
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
There seems to be a mix. Which is part of the problem with the national debate / conversation. There are companies who found the absolute best in the world that they have to have. So they need that H1-B to get the job done and hire the best person. Then there are companies who just want to contract out super cheap labor, so they do thousands of H1-B applications hoping a few hundred make it through, then the they cha…
So the second example I’m assuming is the operating model of companies like Accenture, Cognizant, etc. I’m flooding this thread a bit, but I’ve always been a little confused by the consultancy firms. Is there a clear difference between off shoring and H1B? Or is it mostly the same thing for these companies, with different margins for each.
So the H-1Bs are loss leaders with actual money being made in offshoring instead.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#338My common sense frustration here is how can the US possibly have a critical shortage of developers on languages that are 20 to 50 years old? We have the third highest population in the world and claim to have excellent education, and these are high paying jobs at 2x-3x the national average yearly income. So what qualifies the shortage? Is it like agriculture where Americans are too entitled for the work? Are American…
It's a tough job no one really likes. I've tried to make programmers of almost everyone I know, almost nobody wants to even try it out.
I suspect, contrary to many people’s desires, this is ultimately not a conversation about economics but a conversation on absent discipline and self motivation.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#339This has gotten very old very fast (beyond the obvious cruelty). I have several friends who keep watching their colleagues just have to up and leave over this and it’s causing a ton of issues for businesses that employ folks on work visas in general. It’s just disruptive to be disruptive/feed the base.
Re: Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
#340So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. So many visa holders in this country will be unable to leave and enter the country for the foreseeable future. If they have sick parents abroad they will not be able to visit them or, in the most tragic circumstances, say goodbye in person. It won't matter whether someone is a world-class r…
> So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. To be blunt, a nation's citizens and permanent residents' rights to economic prosperity outweigh any temporary worker's right to continued employment. Yes it may be viewed as cruel in the individual case, but the point of these visas are not to provide a vehicle for those workers to come…
In actuality additional workers demand lots of things themselves that create net jobs. If more people within the carrying capacity of the environment/structures decreased economic prosperity every country in the world would be looking to shrink their birthrate as much as possible so that the decreasing population could have an increasingly large share of the fixed prosperity. We know of course that the reverse is true.